You Can Heal: The Hard Truth About Doing The Work To Recover From Trauma | With Amy McKiernan

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[SPEAKER_01]: For many of us, we can consider the worst thing as ever happened to us to be the thing that defines us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But what happens if we take the power back from that thing, from the experiences, from the people, from the places?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What happens when we decide to take our power and turn it into something, not only that hills us, that could also potentially heal the world.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that I've done with this show for almost a decade and over 1,000 episodes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that today's guest with her new incredible book, Amy McCurney has done as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into that journey, that story, and that book, most importantly, we're going to get into the path that we almost take.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If we really truly want to be unbroken, Amy and my friend, thank you so much for being here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really happy to be here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, you and I connected a few months ago and I just love the story in journey for those who don't know you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Why should they listen to our conversation today?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that today's conversation is so important because so many of us go through trauma in life and so many of us feel completely shattered from it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so many of us end up living our lives defined by that trauma.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That trauma, those experiences, the brokenness that you feel from them,

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[SPEAKER_00]: It just drives the boat for us through life and we don't even realize it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that a lot of us it feels impossible to really deeply heal and become whole again when things like that occur.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I want to empower people with my story and my journey that you can become whole again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You can actually do more than just survive these things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a whole life out there for you that can be fulfilling and beautiful.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone has the capability to tap into that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just think it's so as such an important message.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone does have the ability, but the hard part is recognizing that you're about to have to do some really fucking hard work and and I think one of the things that can get lost in this conversation and and you know I think probably I can be at fault to that to some extent because I'm like,

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so before we dive down that path when we talk about those things, let's begin with your story in your journey.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What was kind of the turning point for you in your life where you realized that with what had happened to you, it was something that you needed to get into.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of exploring it, of expressing it, of doing the work of seeing, you know, maybe this was my rock bottom, and if I don't do something about what happened, nothing's going to change.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really good question.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that for me, there were a lot of moments in life that I would, so for starters, I ended up really turning to like drugs and alcohol as a numbing, you know, to get through life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was really going down at Dangerous Path in my teen years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it took me, there wasn't an incident in that time that made me say, like, I need to stop this, or I'm going to, I'm not going to survive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it was these, like, kind of natural resets that happened where I got a taste of life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: like cleaner, and I was like, okay, and I started to like feel a little bit, and that fell actually good.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what kind of guided me toward slowing down with the drugs and alcohol.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that for me, the biggest, like, I did a lot of healing, and I was like starting to get healthier and find myself a little bit,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I actually like I've healed and maybe I'm I'm not doing these things anymore and like I'm fine, but then I'm like realizing actually I'm not valuing myself still, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like there was this part where like yes, maybe I stopped the drugs and alcohol and I was

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[SPEAKER_00]: navigating through life in a healthier way, but I wasn't fully choosing myself or valuing myself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't allowing myself to be loved in a, in the way I deserved.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't allowing myself to kind of take that step of like, I actually,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I do get to have better than this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I actually, no, I do get to have control over these things And it wasn't until I had my son.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had my son at 20 years old and It's like it's almost like I needed something more than myself to realize like wait a minute.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now I have this child and I really want to be a really great mom to this kid and I can't really do that if I am not

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[SPEAKER_00]: taking care of myself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And if I am not setting the example for him of like, you know, that value piece and how to treat other people and that helped me decide to get out of the relationship with his, was that it's not at the time because it wasn't a healthy one.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I finally was like, I'm going to,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to become a single mom and really that was like it for me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like clicked in my brain of like no you know what like I this beautiful baby is this beautiful child I have and I'm deserving of this child and

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm deserving of like a really great life, and I'm deserving of like being treated well, and I'm deserving to feel confident and powerful, and like teach charge of those things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that for me was like that turning point of...

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like taking a step back and realizing that I had thought I had done so much healing, but I actually was really stuck in this like the the value that I felt of myself and like caring about myself enough.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that, you know, kind of started a whole mother healing journey because healing is just it's not linear as we all know so.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What led, you know, I think about the things that happened to us that lead down that path.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What was childhood like for you?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What were the things that you experienced that led to this place of, you know, I've got a, I need drugs, I need alcohol,

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[SPEAKER_01]: I need all these other things in the world.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel value for self or probably others, not to put words in your mouth, but that's how I felt.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I'm sure it's about the things that transpire that turns someone who probably otherwise would never walk down that path down to something that makes them shut off.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I was a very, I was a fortunate child.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had a good childhood.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had a loving family, which I know is not the case for many.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And my turning points in life were when I, when I experienced my first rape at 15.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was by a friend.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was at a small party.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There was alcohol involved.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I lost it was like the light inside me just went out completely and I became this the shell of a person that I once was and that was really the beginning of the downward spiral because after that experience that's when the the numbing started the I was experimenting with anything I get my hands on

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[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely anything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I would try anything, I would drink myself into oblivion, I just could not get out of the darkness.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that eventually led to another rape.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the path continued.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, and then I had experiences with

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, adults in my life, like a boyfriend's uncle that that were devastating and traumatic and and it's just it's like I couldn't get out of it and I ended up being like Like the victim mindset, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I was like this victim in life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was just no matter where I went abuse would come and that's I like deemed myself that was my worth, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is my lot in life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: to be used in abuse.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so when the abuse would come, it was almost like, it was expected.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, well, I mean, that is how it is, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's kind of what I'm worth.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I went through life a really long time, like, with this mindset of, I'm deserving of these things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is my law in life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so how else do I get through, but to numb the pain?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so many people sit in that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was my case, too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, growing up and I've shared my story a million times on this show, but going through the abuse through being the last to through, you know, having learning disability and people call me dumb, but actually at a genius like you, but because I had an ADHD and I was a fighter as a kid, people

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[SPEAKER_01]: labeled me as this and that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And by the time that I was 12, I got high for the first time, 13 drunk, and then it was just whatever I could do to, I don't even think it was numbing to be honest with you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was just the only way I could feel normal.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There was even the chaos of it all.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And for years, I would be like, well, I guess my life is this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This really sucks.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I guess is in my cards.

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[SPEAKER_01]: God doesn't love me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: My parents don't love me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Fuck it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Who cares?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What

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[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I don't know if that was the experience for you, but I kind of carried this really McEvellian view and the world, very nihilistic view of the world, I was just like, who gives a shit about anything?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because obviously no one cares about me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And, and that's a really hard amount of weight for a child to carry, because you know, when you're 15, 16, set, you're child.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the hardest part

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[SPEAKER_01]: People do not understand until you understand it, that even if the worst thing ever imaginable has happened to you, you still have agency to change your life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was something that you did.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But before I walk that on curious, when I say that, what resonates with you?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I like I hear so much of what you're saying and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, because,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I, and in my book, I talk about like, it's almost like, it becomes your identity right this this victim mindset like this is who you are in life and it's like becomes comfortable for you and it's like you don't realize it right it's not like it's not like you're like, yes, I am going to choose this today that's it's like without it like the thought of being without it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: is scary and it doesn't feel normal.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, yeah, the drinking and stuff like I didn't, I wasn't like, I'm gonna do this because I need to numb the pain.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was just like, I was living life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I thought I was having fun, you know?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was me functioning normally.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was just how I felt safe and comfortable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yes, that victim mindset, like when you become,

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[SPEAKER_00]: a victim.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what feels comfortable for you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's amazing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When I look back and I'm like, oh my goodness, like I was so accepting of it, you know, it was like I think that when I would get a taste of something that was healthier or.

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[SPEAKER_00]: safer, a relationship or a treatment from somebody.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like whoa, whoa, whoa, sabotage, sabotage, go away.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is not normal.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I am not worthy of this and you need to like, get away from me, you know?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, you know, navigating through life, almost searching for the victimhood, almost searching for the pain in a sense.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not like, not to say like,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was deserving of any of it or I, you know, I should have, if I did this differently, it wouldn't have happened, but like you do become like your path just goes in a different direction when you are living in that mindset and I and I appreciate what you said about people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: having agency over it because it is true.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And like it does when you say it to when you're in that, when you're really in it, when you're in the darkness, and you can't see the light to hear that is like,

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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels impossible, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like that might be for you, but that is not for me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I felt, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I would see stronger people or I would hear about really empowering stories.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was like really great and inspiring, but that wasn't me, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: That I was not capable of being that person.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's just not, you know?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's true for, so I mean, it was true for me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was true for tons of people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it's true for people in this moment listening to us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious though, because in the beginning, you'd mentioned that you had a pretty good childhood with good parents.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Where were they during this phase of your life?

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[SPEAKER_01]: What was that experience like with them?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason that I ask you is because you're kind of in the minority of that reality.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the people who have the experiences like this, like mine, like many of the people who are in the show, we have absentee parents, drug addicts, alcoholic parents, parents who are in prison, parents who are dead, many of those things were true for me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I believe that sometimes people think that if they would have had good parents, bad things won't happen to them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's not anomalous that that's your case.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And some really curious if you can share a little bit about that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point because I think it's very easy to look at our own situation and be like, well, if only this, then it would all be different, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I did have a great parents and I had a loving family and they were very supportive and, you know, for anyone who has experiences similar to mine, where they do have the support system there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know that even with that support system there, you feel completely alone because rape and sexual abuse, it's such an isolating experience, it's such a shameful experience that, you know, that self-believe and that self-hate, it's like I just completely shut down to everyone around me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know and they were there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I didn't tell them about it at first.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They found out and once they found out they tried their hardest to, you know, they took me to the police and we filed a report and we went through all those processes and they were desperately trying to get me the help I needed and be there for me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And they were watching me just disappear.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I wasn't accepting of the help.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like a burden.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like, oh my God, look at what I'm doing in my family.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I am causing so much grief for my family.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I had that support system.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I completely shut them out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then when, you know, turned to drugs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They're I didn't have a cell phone, um, they're weren't like location.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So like I became a master liar manipulator.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They never I was never honest, but where I was going I was always doing things I was not supposed to be doing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, making it very hard for them to keep me safe.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, then when the second rape happened, I didn't tell them about that either.

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[SPEAKER_00]: you know, it was just like this shame that I carried.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I am definitely grateful that I had the support that I had because they stayed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They did stay and they just took it one day at a time and one step at a time with me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, even if you come from a supported background life,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Life happens, you know, like things happen and and it can you can still feel very lost in a loan even when you're not.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that a lot of people who go through this even if they have a support system.

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[SPEAKER_00]: feel completely lost in a loan, and they're not.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I also feel like it's important to know that there is a support system out there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It just might look different, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like there are so many support groups and mental health professionals and things like that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like we are all deserving of some kind of support system.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It just means,

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[SPEAKER_00]: finding the right one, you know, or finding what that looks like for you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: was there a turning point in your relationship with them that you then started to allow that experience to exist of filling the support of filling the love of film a connection because there are people today that I know still they're battling with that space of just we can talk about intimate relationships in love and like healing sexual experiences like on the backside of this

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[SPEAKER_01]: what was that like to cross that bridge to finally sit in a space of allowing them to care for you?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it took a long time, but I had to

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[SPEAKER_00]: to decide.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had to choose that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had to let them in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They patiently waited, you know, they patiently stuck by me and, you know, took me to therapy and tried to find the right therapist and all of those things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the turning point was me choosing my healing and choosing to, like

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and once I did that, once I could open up about these things and allow them to enter my life again and my, you know, and have that connection with them again, it was a game changer.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I did feel less alone.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I did feel more like a deserving person.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And there wasn't like one thing that happened.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was just over time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think once I started getting out of the drug and alcohol spiral that I was in and being sober and being with my family and just like connecting a little bit at a time and allowing them in a little bit out of time.

19:56.240 --> 20:07.863
[SPEAKER_00]: He adjusted his whole schedule to be around more, and he literally after school, we would sit, and we would watch general hospital, the soap opera together.

20:08.823 --> 20:11.123
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was the only connection that we had.

20:11.363 --> 20:12.284
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't talk to him.

20:12.424 --> 20:15.784
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say anything, but he would just do it every day.

20:16.484 --> 20:18.405
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and then like eventually he would.

20:19.805 --> 20:20.486
[SPEAKER_00]: like make a joke.

20:21.586 --> 20:27.769
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like eventually I would respond, you know, and then we started watching Yankee games together.

20:28.289 --> 20:34.592
[SPEAKER_00]: And like we just it was like these little things that like he grasped that and he didn't need much from me.

20:34.873 --> 20:37.354
[SPEAKER_00]: He just needed me to realize that he was there.

20:38.294 --> 20:44.257
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think after and it took a long time like I said, but then just continuing to show up,

20:44.617 --> 21:00.260
[SPEAKER_00]: And me finally deciding that I was worth healing a little bit, I was worth not numbing myself all the time really allowed that's when I allowed them back in and that was it was beautiful thing.

21:01.207 --> 21:04.248
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's walk down that path, this worth conversation.

21:05.088 --> 21:13.730
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to do that because I know it's just such a delicate and hard conversation to have for people who they just don't get it.

21:13.770 --> 21:16.311
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, what in the hell are you guys talking about?

21:16.731 --> 21:17.631
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel worthy.

21:17.691 --> 21:19.672
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I'm at or I'm not important.

21:20.032 --> 21:22.372
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know why I'm listening to the stupid podcast right now.

21:22.492 --> 21:24.033
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, people are in that headspace.

21:24.773 --> 21:42.145
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think about the shame that comes along with these experiences and my journey working through the shame felt like a climate-fucking Mount Everest barefoot naked and just like every single day trying to at least do something different.

21:42.205 --> 21:47.409
[SPEAKER_01]: But this was only after, you know, turning 26 and effectively destroying my life.

21:48.049 --> 21:53.313
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I see so many people online and in the world and they talk about

21:53.773 --> 22:20.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you have to find self worth, but it's hard to find self worth when you don't even care about yourself enough to not want to kill yourself every single day, which is a totally real I'm not saying that was your experience I was mine, but it's like a totally reasonable thing and when I see and hear people has taken their own lives I go I get it like it's so hard people are alcoholics and drug addicts and they you know my mother is a prime example of that she died of an overdose I'm like I get it

22:21.483 --> 22:34.746
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's that's a part of the experience in the journey for so many of us, but that choosing yourself, I would argue, and I would actually support it as probably the strongest argument.

22:34.887 --> 22:47.710
[SPEAKER_01]: I will make in the context of anything I talk about that moment of choosing yourself is the hardest thing that you'll ever do, but it's the one fucking thing that you can do that will actually help you change your life.

22:48.450 --> 22:53.393
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's not overnight because I promise you that moment, this is my experience.

22:53.714 --> 22:54.834
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go figure this shit out.

22:54.854 --> 22:56.876
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take care of myself and do the right things.

22:57.556 --> 23:01.099
[SPEAKER_01]: It probably took me a solid six years to feel somewhat normal.

23:01.559 --> 23:05.882
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm curious, I want you to talk us through the moment.

23:05.962 --> 23:10.385
[SPEAKER_01]: If there was this definitive defining moment of you sitting and being like, okay,

23:11.085 --> 23:19.072
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to do something different, and then I want you to talk about the subsequent steps after that and what's that part of the journey look like.

23:20.313 --> 23:25.457
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's I just want to comment on what you said about the the choice thing, right?

23:25.497 --> 23:31.282
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I agree so much with you that is the most important thing and is the hardest thing.

23:31.863 --> 23:33.824
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I talk about like

23:35.335 --> 23:54.985
[SPEAKER_00]: I paint this picture of like paving a new path for yourself when you think about paving a path for yourself it's not this overnight like okay here it is I'm just going to go down it now like it is hard work a new path is like you have to clear it out you hit boulders you stall it's

23:55.605 --> 24:22.320
[SPEAKER_00]: You backtrack, you know, you get stuck for days, weeks, years, you know, sometimes, and like sometimes it's literally chipping away a giant boulder that feels like it will never budge, but if you just keep chipping away slowly and making like the small sustainable choices, even like once that feel stupid and silly right like this is the like really is going to change my life, but like yeah, like if you make a small choice every day,

24:23.160 --> 24:33.606
[SPEAKER_00]: choosing yourself and toward your healing, whether it's setting a small boundary, reaching out to somebody journaling for yourself, choosing what not to put in your body that day, right?

24:34.007 --> 24:35.147
[SPEAKER_00]: That's one small step.

24:35.167 --> 24:36.288
[SPEAKER_00]: That's your chipping away.

24:36.388 --> 24:39.770
[SPEAKER_00]: And eventually, those small choices lead to bigger ones.

24:39.910 --> 24:44.773
[SPEAKER_00]: Eventually, that path becomes a little bit clearer where it's like they're space now for me.

24:45.374 --> 24:48.575
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, that small choice every day for the how long

24:51.397 --> 24:53.619
[SPEAKER_00]: to like really take some steps forward.

24:54.099 --> 24:55.340
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what it's about.

24:55.480 --> 24:57.141
[SPEAKER_00]: It does take it as hard work.

24:57.401 --> 25:00.263
[SPEAKER_00]: There is nothing, nothing about this is easy, right?

25:00.303 --> 25:02.465
[SPEAKER_00]: And it does take a lot of time.

25:02.485 --> 25:11.791
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, you're asking me like, one moment in my life, you know, or, you know, that that was like pivotal or whatnot.

25:12.191 --> 25:18.736
[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, like, it's hard to pinpoint those things because the journey was so long and slow,

25:19.616 --> 25:25.499
[SPEAKER_00]: that it was like I was making these clearings by making small choices, right?

25:25.519 --> 25:28.941
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so first I was deciding not to stop doing drugs.

25:29.842 --> 25:33.324
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just like I need to stop doing these drugs.

25:33.344 --> 25:35.885
[SPEAKER_00]: There were people that were overdosing that I knew.

25:36.326 --> 25:40.348
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just like this thing where it was like this is not.

25:41.357 --> 25:46.021
[SPEAKER_00]: like this is not going to get me very far if I continue down this path.

25:46.482 --> 25:50.425
[SPEAKER_00]: And so stopping to do the major drugs, right?

25:50.585 --> 25:51.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was still getting high.

25:51.586 --> 25:52.427
[SPEAKER_00]: I was still drinking.

25:52.467 --> 26:01.254
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, I, well, I'm going to stop exploring with all these other things because I'm waking up and I'm not knowing what happened.

26:02.055 --> 26:04.177
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm wondering about what happened.

26:04.377 --> 26:07.480
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is like feeling really scary.

26:08.281 --> 26:18.556
[SPEAKER_00]: And so stopping to do, like getting that, you know, intense with drugs, I made that choice first.

26:18.937 --> 26:19.318
[SPEAKER_00]: And then

26:20.134 --> 26:24.816
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of, like I said, like it was like chipping away at this path and like there was a little clearing there.

26:25.657 --> 26:29.579
[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, and I had some force right, you know, I was a teen.

26:29.599 --> 26:30.119
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a kid.

26:30.319 --> 26:32.360
[SPEAKER_00]: So like there were some forced resets too.

26:32.400 --> 26:33.781
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my parents.

26:33.901 --> 26:44.706
[SPEAKER_00]: I got into a lot of trouble and I, you know, got caught doing a lot of things and my parents, like finally where they were so desperate that they like grounded me for like six weeks where I couldn't

26:49.862 --> 26:56.389
[SPEAKER_00]: to like really be sober for a longer, long period of time, that period of time that I've never been that sober before.

26:57.070 --> 27:00.174
[SPEAKER_00]: And it felt good.

27:01.055 --> 27:09.925
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was like, this almost is like forced like soberness that I was like, okay, and that helped with that decision to like, okay, maybe those hard drugs.

27:11.451 --> 27:23.980
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm going to take a break and then that would made it a little bit easier for me to be like, okay, I'm going to like go a little slower with that and so it just like clearing this little path and then eventually.

27:24.000 --> 27:33.867
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, did become a mom at 20 and so that was like kind of another like forced like, oh, you know, now I have a kid now I'm pregnant.

27:34.047 --> 27:38.170
[SPEAKER_00]: So now I have to make the decision to take care of that baby.

27:39.266 --> 27:41.369
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't planned.

27:43.052 --> 27:48.920
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was another moment in my life where I was like, okay, I need to pump the brakes.

27:49.869 --> 28:09.227
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have this child now and so, you know, life sometimes presents you with like forced resets or like unplanned resets and then sometimes their resets that you have to give yourself right like if you're feeling completely like you're drowning in lost you have to say I have to make an active choice.

28:10.187 --> 28:34.035
[SPEAKER_00]: to pause here and figure out what do I need to get out of this hole that I'm in, you know, and maybe that's like I said before, making when it just make one decision every day to not do something or to go and do something different and that might feel silly and small, but I promise you really does when you start choosing yourself every day, even in a small way, it's a game

28:41.181 --> 28:41.601
[SPEAKER_01]: It does.

28:41.882 --> 28:50.488
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one of the things I've shared many times over the years with my clients because it was a discovery that I made is that the piece is in the pause.

28:51.108 --> 28:59.755
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no space at all in your life to change your life if you can't have a deep hard reflection about what's going on.

29:00.435 --> 29:04.238
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes even that's in the midst of life working really well, you can sit in a

29:06.620 --> 29:12.765
[SPEAKER_01]: There's still these little inklings of like, I'm being drawn or pulled into something different.

29:13.205 --> 29:25.695
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm in the midst of that myself personally, where I was like, oh, there's this thing that I feel drawn or called towards in my life, where it's like, I have to have a really hard conversation with myself about, well, which direction do I want to go?

29:26.456 --> 29:29.418
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that involves you getting to this place of listening.

29:29.478 --> 29:30.739
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying it's good or bad.

29:30.780 --> 29:34.382
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, there's a different direction, a different path in front of you.

29:37.759 --> 29:40.461
[SPEAKER_01]: lot of people leverage the idea of giving things up.

29:40.541 --> 29:41.642
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to quit drugs.

29:41.662 --> 29:43.944
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a quit alcohol and quit this or that doesn't matter.

29:43.984 --> 29:48.007
[SPEAKER_01]: Insert whatever it is, but they don't give them self's things.

29:48.128 --> 29:56.354
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't take on whatever that means to love or care about themselves enough to to walk that path of worth.

29:56.374 --> 29:57.835
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's even people who

29:58.851 --> 30:09.861
[SPEAKER_01]: I know this because of coach so many people over the years, the idea of sending back the salad that's wrong at the restaurant is so foreign to them that they can't seem to fathom it.

30:10.501 --> 30:13.424
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, but that's the first step of self-care.

30:13.464 --> 30:21.050
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, if you can't send back the thing that isn't suited for you, how are you going to do the hard things when the hard things come?

30:21.271 --> 30:21.511
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

30:21.571 --> 30:23.513
[SPEAKER_01]: Like choosing the different path.

30:24.413 --> 30:30.140
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the experience like, you know, and this is such a fucking loaded question, trust me, I realize it as I ask it.

30:30.601 --> 30:34.906
[SPEAKER_01]: But what is the journey to self love and self worth?

30:35.266 --> 30:38.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you actually start that process?

30:38.690 --> 30:40.732
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the some of the things that you are doing?

30:41.113 --> 30:42.915
[SPEAKER_01]: And then how do you know if it's working?

30:43.682 --> 30:49.345
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, I, I, that is a little requested and I probably spend two hours talking just about that.

30:50.145 --> 31:00.290
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I mean, I think that, I loved what you said about, you know, the focus is always I'm like, you have to give this up and, and stop doing the drugs and stop drinking and all those things.

31:00.310 --> 31:02.852
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what are you giving yourself, right?

31:02.872 --> 31:06.073
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how are you honoring yourself?

31:06.573 --> 31:07.974
[SPEAKER_00]: And what are you doing for yourself?

31:07.994 --> 31:09.655
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what are you putting into your cup?

31:09.975 --> 31:10.335
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

31:10.515 --> 31:20.842
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, self-care is such an important piece of it because honoring ourselves and taking care of ourselves is so lost.

31:21.442 --> 31:29.167
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like we're so used to just running, running, running, running, running, we don't stop or driving ourselves into the ground half the time.

31:29.667 --> 31:34.391
[SPEAKER_00]: Burning ourselves out half the time because we have to just keep working, keep moving, keep doing.

31:34.831 --> 31:40.455
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, where does that pause and self love and self care come into play?

31:41.035 --> 31:54.124
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, it's so for me, it's so important to, you know, what I found younger, like, was something that I've been outlet that I found that was healthy for me was exercise, right?

31:57.927 --> 31:59.248
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, in drinking as much.

31:59.928 --> 32:06.851
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started, you know, taking care of my body and exercising and like valuing kind of what I was feeding myself.

32:08.292 --> 32:14.994
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was like this like a journaling aspect too for me, like writing it down.

32:15.014 --> 32:24.639
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually just found it like all my journals that I had when I was younger and all these things like like an outlet for myself to get what everything that

32:28.245 --> 32:31.267
[SPEAKER_00]: and like saying it out loud, right?

32:31.287 --> 32:32.647
[SPEAKER_00]: Like giving myself a voice.

32:33.368 --> 32:40.291
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that the self-loin, accepting healthy relationships.

32:40.451 --> 32:42.032
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a huge one for me.

32:43.553 --> 32:52.798
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I gave up the unhealthy one, but then I had to allow myself to accept love

32:53.638 --> 32:56.783
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and better treatment.

32:57.564 --> 33:09.420
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that was a big step for me, and like a turning point, I think, was allowing myself to enter a healthy relationship with someone.

33:10.990 --> 33:12.991
[SPEAKER_00]: I was always so afraid to do that.

33:13.011 --> 33:15.912
[SPEAKER_00]: And I always ran so far from, from those.

33:17.032 --> 33:18.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I didn't think I was worthy.

33:18.633 --> 33:21.414
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that I would mess it up to be honest.

33:21.454 --> 33:23.775
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I was like, I'm just, I'm gonna ruin you.

33:23.955 --> 33:24.855
[SPEAKER_00]: Like stay away.

33:24.955 --> 33:25.755
[SPEAKER_00]: I am bad news.

33:26.276 --> 33:29.137
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I started on this journey of like,

33:30.077 --> 33:34.320
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I value myself and how do I honor my worth?

33:35.140 --> 33:42.424
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of that was taking care of myself doing things that made me feel good and healthy.

33:43.265 --> 33:48.608
[SPEAKER_00]: And allowing and accepting those healthy relationships as they came, they were friendships.

33:49.528 --> 33:51.289
[SPEAKER_00]: They were connection with my family.

33:52.550 --> 34:14.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And then eventually a romantic healthy relationship whose my husband now, you know, is like, and I remember distinctly talking my sister about like the thought of dating who I married to now and and she's like, well, why are you so like why, like I was so resistant to the idea and and it was like kind of like hit me like,

34:15.608 --> 34:17.749
[SPEAKER_01]: Why am I so resistant to this?

34:18.229 --> 34:20.590
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like an automatic know in my brain, right?

34:20.610 --> 34:31.595
[SPEAKER_00]: My automatic response was like, well, clearly, that's not going to work because that's a kind person who really values me.

34:31.675 --> 34:34.696
[SPEAKER_00]: So clearly, that's not going to work for me.

34:34.897 --> 34:38.558
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had to stop myself and be like, but why?

34:39.999 --> 34:42.080
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you're going to, you can allow it in.

34:43.394 --> 34:46.036
[SPEAKER_00]: You can allow yourself to feel that.

34:46.677 --> 34:57.306
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, that was a huge step for me in life was to actually enter a healthy relationship with somebody for sure, because I never thought I was deserving of it before.

34:58.959 --> 35:12.896
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think a lot of people fill that way and sometimes I see, you know, I've been cancelled by a few therapists over the years and I'm sure I will right now because I'm about to say what about to say and that's fine because I really don't care.

35:13.997 --> 35:35.500
[SPEAKER_01]: But this idea that you have to be whole and healthy and perfect to get into a relationship is the most bullshit thing I've ever heard of my life, because so much of the healing comes in connection, almost all of it comes in connection with other human beings, because most of the pain and the suffering and the loss and the shame and the trauma also came from other human beings.

35:36.000 --> 35:40.042
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a part of you that has to allowing is so true.

35:40.703 --> 35:43.304
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other part of it I always add is you have to accept it.

35:43.444 --> 35:47.027
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to sit in this and be like, yep, I'm accepting that this is true.

35:47.467 --> 35:51.069
[SPEAKER_01]: This person cares about me, they love me, they whatever the thing is.

35:51.469 --> 35:58.833
[SPEAKER_01]: And that could be the nice city of like a stranger buying you coffee or it could be the dinner date or it could be the promotion at work.

35:59.494 --> 36:02.536
[SPEAKER_01]: And the self sabotage thing is so difficult because

36:03.356 --> 36:09.379
[SPEAKER_01]: once you can utter the words self-sabotage, this is my opinion, now you're making a choice.

36:10.199 --> 36:15.801
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, if you want to choose for your life to suck, that's on you.

36:16.502 --> 36:19.703
[SPEAKER_01]: And that really is painful in its unfair.

36:20.303 --> 36:22.404
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry that you have to have that experience.

36:22.424 --> 36:24.225
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I wish that wasn't for you.

36:24.805 --> 36:27.887
[SPEAKER_01]: But until you choose something differently, life is going to keep

36:29.007 --> 36:30.928
[SPEAKER_01]: And the hard part is like, nobody cares.

36:31.409 --> 36:34.010
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you think about this, Amy, I'm 40 years old.

36:34.350 --> 36:36.732
[SPEAKER_01]: It took till I was 40 for us to cross past.

36:36.812 --> 36:41.054
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no inclination of your existence until, you know, a couple months ago, right?

36:41.675 --> 36:45.177
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the, that's the, that's the trueism of the human experience.

36:45.797 --> 37:09.702
[SPEAKER_01]: and you sit in these moments and you think that you're somehow owed something and you're just not and that's part of the victim mentality too where you sit you know like I'm owed a healthy relationship and it's like no because you have to put in work and then the healthy relationship comes and then you fuck it up and they're like why just always happen to me I'm like what if it's happened 19 times there's probably a common denominator here.

37:10.482 --> 37:15.407
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of the hard things is the willingness to open up and accept.

37:15.507 --> 37:29.280
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, especially if you've been through trauma and the things like you and I have been through, it's therapy, it's coaching, it's the journaling, it's the exercise, it's the sobriety, it's the books, it's all of it sucks.

37:29.720 --> 37:37.605
[SPEAKER_01]: like I've always said the first four years in this journey for me 26 to 30 sucked every single day of that fucking was just misery, right?

37:37.705 --> 37:40.286
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're you're walking this new path.

37:40.927 --> 37:42.548
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's that day today, choice.

37:43.413 --> 37:54.880
[SPEAKER_01]: Met lead you to the moment where you get a set across from someone or someone's people, friends, intimate partners, husband, wife relationship, and you get to go, I'm okay with being vulnerable with you.

37:55.921 --> 37:57.382
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not afraid to tell you the truth.

37:57.462 --> 38:01.244
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm okay with you caring about me, I'm going to allow it and accept it.

38:01.885 --> 38:06.448
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't get there without walking this path, and the path is not easy.

38:07.148 --> 38:23.521
[SPEAKER_01]: And the only encouragement I would give anyone is you have to go be with other humans if you're isolating and you're alone and you're staying in your house and you're depressed and you're sad and you're lonely and you're drinking and you're smoking and you're not doing anything connected to the world.

38:24.342 --> 38:28.448
[SPEAKER_01]: you are in a very fucked up place and it's not going to get better.

38:29.249 --> 38:38.222
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's me hard loving you because for me, as a coach and as someone who's done this for a very long time, I know what's possible for people.

38:38.262 --> 38:38.923
[SPEAKER_01]: I've witnessed it.

38:39.043 --> 38:39.263
[SPEAKER_01]: That was

38:39.283 --> 38:51.392
[SPEAKER_01]: dozens of times do people have walked through my programs and all of the people in the world who lean into this with this nice city and this softness, I'm like, that shit does not work for almost anyone.

38:51.893 --> 39:07.225
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm asking, I'm phrasing all that to ask you this question, was there, and this is my word, so please use Amy's words, but was there a moment where you kind of had to put your foot in your own ass and be like, listen, what was that like for you?

39:08.875 --> 39:16.360
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so I love so much of what you said because I agree with you, like, life doesn't, you have to make your life happen.

39:16.640 --> 39:17.421
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

39:17.461 --> 39:26.487
[SPEAKER_00]: So like the waiting around because you're owed something or you deserve or like, you know, that like mentality, that's just not going to get you very far, right?

39:26.507 --> 39:30.150
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you do have to take control of your life if you want change.

39:30.810 --> 39:34.092
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, you're not going, you'll never see that change.

39:34.112 --> 39:34.973
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to take

39:35.533 --> 39:38.054
[SPEAKER_00]: The reins and be like, okay, I'm in the driver seat now.

39:38.234 --> 39:39.195
[SPEAKER_00]: What am I doing?

39:39.215 --> 39:43.096
[SPEAKER_00]: What am I contributing and like a part of accepting those relationships?

39:43.136 --> 39:51.620
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's I was definitely not perfect and whole and I'm still not perfect, you know, and it's like you grow with a person.

39:52.340 --> 40:04.366
[SPEAKER_00]: And my husband and I have been through it like the growth and the work that we've done together because we both have our own histories and our own traumas that we have brought to this relationship.

40:04.766 --> 40:10.488
[SPEAKER_00]: And as we have been learning and growing about each other, we're evolving and changing and addressing the things that have come up.

40:10.889 --> 40:18.832
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to be parents together, that's a whole number of walking, right, of like growth and learning and like, okay, now we have these other

40:21.133 --> 40:29.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so, and I think I totally just got off track of what you've asked me, but um, I, you know, sorry, go ahead.

40:29.057 --> 40:34.539
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just asking was it was a really hard coming to Jesus moment for you, right?

40:34.559 --> 40:36.880
[SPEAKER_01]: Where you're like, yo, this is on me.

40:37.981 --> 40:41.943
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that in my,

40:43.392 --> 40:54.717
[SPEAKER_00]: There's probably several, right, but what I'm thinking about, well, what's what this is making me think about is that, you know, healing never really stops, right?

40:54.737 --> 41:03.662
[SPEAKER_00]: The healing and the growth, it just keeps going, and it's interesting that you ask that because I, that there's been so many times in my life,

41:04.628 --> 41:06.950
[SPEAKER_00]: where I've been like, I'm done.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm healed.

41:08.291 --> 41:10.613
[SPEAKER_00]: Look at me, I'm like the healed person.

41:10.653 --> 41:14.857
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like completely done with my journey of healing and I am just like, I've got it.

41:15.438 --> 41:19.041
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's been so many times that I'm like, oh wait, no, I'm not.

41:19.662 --> 41:20.022
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh wait.

41:20.342 --> 41:22.424
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, this thing is coming up right now.

41:22.865 --> 41:31.232
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I didn't even realize that I was still dealing with these, my trauma, like, this is connected to my trauma.

41:31.332 --> 41:37.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Holy shit, this is just a period in my marriage of, you know, I'm already married eight years in, like, here we are.

41:37.798 --> 41:39.260
[SPEAKER_00]: And this thing is coming up.

41:39.800 --> 41:42.943
[SPEAKER_00]: That is clearly tied to my trauma.

41:44.024 --> 41:45.064
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had no idea.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so like here I am.

41:46.785 --> 41:57.371
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think that there's been moments like several moments where it's like, oh, if I don't address this, this is not going to work well.

41:57.891 --> 42:03.675
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like, I think about more recent ones like just being in a healthy marriage.

42:04.635 --> 42:09.418
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, realizing that if I don't like, I can

42:11.490 --> 42:13.693
[SPEAKER_00]: Connect it to my trauma all I want.

42:14.634 --> 42:23.086
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I don't actually address it and work on it and deal with it, it's going to keep impacting my marriage in a negative way.

42:23.226 --> 42:25.289
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's on me, right?

42:25.329 --> 42:27.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yes, this thing is connected to my trauma.

42:28.250 --> 42:29.051
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's hard.

42:30.011 --> 42:32.153
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, my husband's understanding of that.

42:32.573 --> 42:40.359
[SPEAKER_00]: However, if I don't choose to do something about it, if I don't choose to really dig up those roots and say, okay, here we are.

42:40.939 --> 42:42.581
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I have a handle on this thing.

42:43.507 --> 42:47.450
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we're going to keep running into these issues, right?

42:47.490 --> 42:50.873
[SPEAKER_00]: Like these intimate issues within a marriage.

42:51.053 --> 42:53.255
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, I need to make that choice.

42:54.155 --> 43:02.982
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, like, yeah, there's been moments like that where it's like, okay, like, yes, it's because of what happened to me.

43:04.483 --> 43:05.524
[SPEAKER_00]: And that sucks.

43:07.105 --> 43:11.068
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is on me to take the reins now

43:13.032 --> 43:28.907
[SPEAKER_01]: If someone's spouse or partner has been life, they're listening, and they know that their person has had traumatic experience, sexual abuse, any of the things that we've talked about today, what advice would you give them?

43:30.148 --> 43:33.611
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you wish that you would have told your husband when you guys met?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: when dealing with trauma, it's so deeply rooted, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so like sometimes it's just, you need to know that it is not easily identifiable, right?

43:54.710 --> 43:59.092
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're not gonna go into this relationship and be like, okay, here's my trauma, here's how.

43:59.192 --> 44:01.754
[SPEAKER_00]: It's affecting me and this is how we're gonna do it.

44:02.114 --> 44:08.057
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's going to keep, you know, it's gonna come up in unexpected ways.

44:10.100 --> 44:16.490
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to, you know, as life evolves, then other things come up, right?

44:16.530 --> 44:24.381
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like it's it's this ongoing journey of patients and identifying that there's something deeper.

44:25.632 --> 44:36.562
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you have a partner who has experienced trauma and you're on this journey of life with them, it's going to be, you know, you have to go through it together, right?

44:36.582 --> 44:39.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't have to have all the answers either, right?

44:39.324 --> 44:48.212
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that goes for any support person is that you need to understand that supporting someone doesn't mean having the answers and it doesn't mean fixing it for them.

44:49.313 --> 45:01.434
[SPEAKER_00]: it just means walking beside them, asking the questions and figuring it out together and and seeing what the next step is to really dig up the root of the issue because it's always

45:02.197 --> 45:03.058
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's within the roots.

45:03.098 --> 45:05.520
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk about, I call it internal gardening, right?

45:05.580 --> 45:08.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Is like you have to find out, find the root of the issue.

45:09.164 --> 45:12.587
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can cut the weed on the top.

45:12.767 --> 45:18.833
[SPEAKER_00]: All you want to make your garden look beautiful, but in the end, if you don't get to the root of it, it's always gonna come back.

45:19.693 --> 45:41.923
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think being patient and walking besides someone to identify the root of whatever is going on, whatever things are popping up for them throughout life because and things will continue to pop up as as life evolves or as certain things come up within a relationship, you know, it is like sometimes it gets unlocked unexpectedly.

45:42.884 --> 45:56.985
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just part of it, and it is hard, but you can walk beside someone and be patient and help them get to the bottom of it and get to the root of it and work those roots out gently.

45:58.480 --> 46:18.214
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think there's, you know, it's all subjective, right, context matters so much in all of this and I think for a lot of it, it's holding space, but I do think sometimes there's a challenge required as well where you're like, you know, we have to deal with this the moment is now we're not going to put this off anymore.

46:18.934 --> 46:20.355
[SPEAKER_01]: you don't like it too bad.

46:20.455 --> 46:23.457
[SPEAKER_01]: We need this, we've walked an egg shell, right?

46:23.917 --> 46:31.642
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's one of the things that people don't really understand is sometimes when you're sitting in that space with someone.

46:31.922 --> 46:41.288
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, context, please, like I'm not saying, if somebody's having a fucking breakdown, push them through it, I'm saying, hey, there's a time in space for all of these conversations.

46:41.849 --> 46:44.971
[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes there's a forceful nudge that's required.

46:45.411 --> 47:01.235
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because it can break the frame for someone who doesn't think that someone cares about them, right, and you can go, hey, I'm here fucking right here next to you like let's do this and I think that's such an Intensive experience to it.

47:01.415 --> 47:06.497
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't understand how beautiful it can be right, but also there's a right time right play.

47:06.517 --> 47:10.558
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always want to keep that in mind, but for the most part, it's like sit in it with people.

47:11.198 --> 47:15.780
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to look his hard bar, too, because people are listening and they're like, I'm so scared of rejection.

47:16.120 --> 47:20.142
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so scared that if I do this, that I'm going to lose them, and let me tell you this.

47:20.422 --> 47:26.265
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do it and you lose them, they were not your person and that's what, and that's not what you want to hear or I get it.

47:26.345 --> 47:35.369
[SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, sometimes we love the people who are in our person, who are in our friend, who are in our companion, who aren't, or whatever that thing is, but you don't know until you know.

47:35.889 --> 47:50.629
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think that sometimes you have to be willing to sit in that on both sides and just go, hey, maybe this works, maybe it doesn't, but we're not going to wonder, we're going to actually find out, because I think the wondering is way more painful than the finding out.

47:51.490 --> 47:53.052
[SPEAKER_00]: Long how you're per cent, let me know.

47:54.394 --> 48:07.345
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you, you know, as a parent, how do you, because I know we have lots of parents listening, how do you navigate the things that happen and the trauma that comes up and the triggering that happens just from having a kid?

48:09.006 --> 48:20.376
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, so my experience being a parent has been, I mean, I've had some intense times as a parent and I honestly, I have to say like,

48:22.047 --> 48:39.583
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like grateful for my journey because I feel like my journey and the healing journey that I've gone on and the becoming whole again and just taking control of my life and overcoming like that's my thing is like we can overcome her things we can.

48:40.878 --> 49:03.578
[SPEAKER_00]: and sometimes it sucks and it's painful and it takes a lot of learning and understanding and what you're dealing with but you can't overcome it and I feel like my overcoming my own trauma has prepared me to help my children with what life throws at them and so I have an 18 year old and I have a 10 year old and so my 18 year old

49:05.460 --> 49:08.662
[SPEAKER_00]: has some severe mental health challenges.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it has been a very challenging road.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I have noticed, you know, that trying to support him through it, you know, there's been times where I've been very triggered by my own experiences, my own

49:25.875 --> 49:33.563
[SPEAKER_00]: Tremet, you know, things bubble up for me and it's like this, this, like, complete, like, um, things are out of control.

49:33.583 --> 49:34.244
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to lose him.

49:34.284 --> 49:34.824
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

49:35.445 --> 49:38.908
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's when I have to pause, and I have to take care of myself, right?

49:38.928 --> 49:47.937
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, as these things bubble up for you, if you lived with your own trauma and you're trying to support now somebody else, you have to pause and get the help that you need to.

49:47.957 --> 49:48.017
[SPEAKER_00]: And

49:48.938 --> 49:57.641
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, support yourself through it so that you can, you have to take care of yourself in order to take care of somebody else, like that's just true.

49:57.681 --> 50:01.202
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't do it if you're completely depleted and empty.

50:01.702 --> 50:11.545
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's been a big learning curve for me is the pause and the self care as I'm navigating my son's challenges.

50:17.997 --> 50:23.699
[SPEAKER_00]: of this is scary, yes, this is hard, this is unfair, right?

50:23.719 --> 50:27.020
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you've been dealt this hand, that is unfair.

50:27.881 --> 50:37.784
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can get a handle on it, we can understand it, and we can overcome and, and still, you can live a fulfilling and beautiful life.

50:38.304 --> 50:39.465
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe that for him.

50:40.405 --> 50:49.492
[SPEAKER_00]: and I fight for that with him every day, and I really think that like my journey of learn of overcoming, right?

50:49.552 --> 50:51.214
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not just survival.

50:51.314 --> 50:52.695
[SPEAKER_00]: It's overcoming.

50:52.835 --> 50:57.038
[SPEAKER_00]: It's having a different relationship with your experiences, right?

50:57.058 --> 50:58.479
[SPEAKER_00]: Because healing doesn't mean that you

50:59.480 --> 51:00.060
[SPEAKER_00]: forget them.

51:00.080 --> 51:02.241
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't make them go away.

51:02.321 --> 51:05.863
[SPEAKER_00]: Those experiences, but you have this like healthy relationship with them.

51:06.663 --> 51:16.927
[SPEAKER_00]: And this like overall acceptance of like reality sometimes that you're able to be like, yep, life is, this, my path is looking different than we thought.

51:18.128 --> 51:19.769
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can do this.

51:20.649 --> 51:22.190
[SPEAKER_00]: We, I just need, we need to learn.

51:22.210 --> 51:22.990
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to understand.

51:23.010 --> 51:23.690
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to get the

51:28.638 --> 51:34.341
[SPEAKER_00]: We might feel broken right now, but we can rebuild and we can become stronger in this.

51:35.562 --> 51:41.485
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I feel like it's that has been such a drive for me with parenting my own kids.

51:41.685 --> 51:44.507
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's because of my own journey.

51:44.567 --> 51:48.409
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I didn't have these experiences, I'm not sure how I would be handling it.

51:49.914 --> 51:50.554
[SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful.

51:50.854 --> 51:55.735
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny as you were saying that it was reflecting, I can, I cannot, I mean this literally.

51:55.775 --> 52:01.197
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot count how many times I've been with someone and they're like, dude, you're going to be an awesome father.

52:01.817 --> 52:08.078
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just because I know all the things not to do, but then I know how to handle the really crazy shit that happens.

52:08.678 --> 52:15.900
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we all have that in us that ability to navigate what's in front of us because it's only one step at a time.

52:20.121 --> 52:22.042
[SPEAKER_01]: yesterday's gone tomorrow is not here.

52:22.102 --> 52:24.003
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, okay, what can I do today?

52:24.723 --> 52:29.005
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's one of the things that is so beautiful about the journey.

52:29.065 --> 52:35.107
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yes, even though you're always going to be healing and there's always going to be that part of you that was hurt that was lost.

52:35.167 --> 52:40.049
[SPEAKER_01]: I was abandoned that was not taking care of that wasn't love that was all of the things that happened.

52:40.849 --> 52:41.950
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still in the past.

52:42.690 --> 52:44.793
[SPEAKER_01]: and it doesn't have to dictate your future.

52:45.374 --> 52:47.858
[SPEAKER_01]: That said, Amy, this has been an awesome conversation.

52:48.098 --> 52:53.526
[SPEAKER_01]: Before I ask you my last question, where can everybody learn more about you and get a copy of your book?

52:54.745 --> 52:59.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you can find me on social media platforms.

53:00.246 --> 53:02.627
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a website, Amy McCurney.com.

53:03.967 --> 53:06.967
[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn more about my book on that website.

53:07.067 --> 53:12.268
[SPEAKER_00]: I have my book does include this reflective journal, which you can download from my website.

53:12.288 --> 53:20.650
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is really awesome because it really as you're reading my book, it's an opportunity for you to connect to your own journey.

53:21.250 --> 53:25.794
[SPEAKER_00]: which I think is so valuable because it is about your healing, not just my story.

53:26.894 --> 53:33.640
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can find my book on Amazon, you can find it at your local bookstore, you know, online, various places.

53:34.460 --> 53:38.123
[SPEAKER_00]: I really hope that if you feel like it could serve you that you check it out.

53:39.124 --> 53:39.824
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the title?

53:40.865 --> 53:44.848
[SPEAKER_00]: More than a survivor, eight keys to overcoming sexual assault and

53:48.119 --> 53:57.366
[SPEAKER_01]: And guys, remember, you can go over to thinkonbrokenpodcast.com, look up Amy's episode, and in the show notes, you will find all of that and more.

53:58.226 --> 53:59.587
[SPEAKER_01]: My last question for you, my friend.

54:00.087 --> 54:02.769
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to you to be unbroken?

54:03.830 --> 54:04.891
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that question.

54:06.892 --> 54:10.675
[SPEAKER_00]: What it means to me to be unbroken is that is

54:12.407 --> 54:19.072
[SPEAKER_00]: becoming whole again, you know, we have experiences that do that break us, right?

54:19.552 --> 54:22.414
[SPEAKER_00]: But we don't have to live in that brokenness.

54:22.614 --> 54:23.875
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to live shattered.

54:24.435 --> 54:28.958
[SPEAKER_00]: We can rebuild and become whole again.

54:29.659 --> 54:40.627
[SPEAKER_00]: And becoming whole again means having a healthy relationship with your experiences, taking back control of your life, choosing yourself,

54:41.427 --> 54:46.213
[SPEAKER_00]: and becoming stronger and more powerful than you were before.

54:46.794 --> 54:48.936
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really do think that that's possible.

54:50.278 --> 54:57.867
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the cover of my book is inspired by Kansugi, which is that Japanese are for pairing broken pottery.

54:58.828 --> 55:16.675
[SPEAKER_00]: And they put the piece back together and they filled the cracks with gold and the piece is deemed more valuable and more beautiful and stronger than it was before and that's that's what it means to me to be unbroken is to rebuild yourself in such a powerful way and becoming whole again.

55:18.407 --> 55:18.867
[SPEAKER_01]: about that.

55:19.387 --> 55:20.788
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being here.

55:20.968 --> 55:22.008
[SPEAKER_01]: Unbrokenation my friends.

55:22.128 --> 55:23.408
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening.

55:23.428 --> 55:27.289
[SPEAKER_01]: If you got any value out of today's episode, share it with someone.

55:27.529 --> 55:34.851
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're in a relationship where you have children and you're trying to navigate this healing journey, you feel lost, you feel stuck, you feel unworthy.

55:35.231 --> 55:36.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're sabotaging.

55:36.672 --> 55:37.992
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe all of the above.

55:38.672 --> 55:49.102
[SPEAKER_01]: You might want to listen to this again and you might want to listen this with someone that you love that said and tell next time my friends take care of yourself take care of each other and be unbroken.

55:49.704 --> 55:50.125
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you.