Men Get Used Too: My “Gone Girl” Nightmare And How I Fought My Way Back | With Justin Smith

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[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine for a moment if everything you do about life, about your experience, about everything around you, suddenly was upended upside down and backwards, and you found yourself trying to understand how you got to where you are, solely putting together the puzzle pieces of your reality and recognizing maybe some things are not as they appeared.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's exactly what happened to today's guest, Justin Smith, and we're going to dive in to his story, his journey, and his decision to take his pain and turn it into purpose.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Just in my friend, thank you for being here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the show.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad to finally be on your show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We talked a couple of months back.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the conversation that we had, I was like, you know, this has such a wild story and there's so much power in your choices in your decisions to turn such a painful experience into something positive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't help but think to myself, man, we have to have a conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm excited to do this with you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: For those listening, why should they listen to our conversation today?

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[SPEAKER_01]: This little here, a very interesting story with a lot of twists and turns and discover that just because you go through an extremely painful experience that it's not going to define who you are, how you respond to it does and how you come out of that painful experience is what matters.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why don't we start with it, just jump right in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What what has led you to this moment, what has transpired in your life that has you on the mission that you're now on?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, about two years ago, my partner of eight years decided to blind-side me and try to gone girl me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's the most concise way I can kind of tell the story.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I woke up one day and it was like, have you ever seen that show McGyver where he snatched out of his life into a new life and he kind of has to discover what's going on?

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's essentially what happened to me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I had a partner that plotted in advance to try and

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[SPEAKER_01]: to deceive me and manipulate me so that she can get my money and exit with a nice big check.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a lot to recover from.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What was that journey like?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that it's actually pretty rare that we hear men willing to come out and have this open conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you obviously, we're not sharing names, we're not sharing date.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing that's going to, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: put us into any legal trouble of any capacity.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, you very rarely see men pop out and share how crazy the experience can be.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think most the time, especially in the media, we hear about men manipulating women and the things that men do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so in a lot of sense, you're an outlier.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I thought to myself, you know, I've had this experience myself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've not shared the details of it on this podcast, but I had very similar experiences.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You were one day I woke up and I realized that the person I was with was after something that I didn't know about.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like a real baseball bat to the face kind of moment.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those experiences that so many men kind of fall victim to.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, obviously, women fall victim to that as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not trying to say that doesn't exist, but we're speaking from it from this capacity today.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So why don't we break down a little bit about your experience and kind of what happened on the back side of this?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know it was such a traumatic experience.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of growth that took place.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What was that like for you coming through this?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was, I mean, the only term I can use has got awful when you're in the middle of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, you know, I was by myself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I lost my entire support system and it really felt like clawing myself out of the deep pit and people kind of cheering me on to fail.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because everything was working against me and it was kind of like a moment where I had to really build the drive within myself and find that buyer to get me out of it because I realized, you know, no one's going to save me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No one's going to come and rescue me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This was something I had to get myself out of and do it in a way where I didn't lose my value set because, you know,

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[SPEAKER_01]: people teaming up against you and doing dirty tricks or whatever else, it's very tempting to play into that game too, but you know, I wanted to pick the higher road and use what happened to me as a sense of purpose to help other people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I'm out here telling the story because strong men, you know, we don't tell these stories.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't go out and show other men what a strong man looks like recovering from a tragedy like that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, talking about our feelings and being vulnerable isn't really something we're taught, you know, since the young age.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm trying to flip the script on that too.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that matters a lot.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that a lot of times it can feel

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[SPEAKER_00]: like weakness, it can feel like shame, it can feel like guilt.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the feelings that have come up for you as you've explored not only having this conversation, but like the healing journey itself?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's say the biggest one is loneliness because this has been like I've had to keep myself away.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I could kind of lick my wounds and redefine myself and find my center, you know, and rebuild myself in a way that felt in alignment with my values, you know, going through something like that is not easy to do and trying to find yourself in the midst of this very disorienting experience where it feels like you crashed into a lake in a car.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the water is flooded in and you're trying to figure out which way is up and down.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just, it's a very, a disoriented experience for lack of a better turn, you know, trying to find your way out of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of feels like you're out in a, a big darkness and you don't know if you're headed in the right direction at some times, but you kind of have to find that inner, that inner motivation and that inner drive to, to keep chugging on, regardless of if you feel like you're making progress.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say are some of the things that you wish that you would have known or or like indicators that maybe were like, oh man, I should have been paying attention to this because one of the things that happened to me, you know, on the backside of having a conversation with one of my best friends, it was like, oh the signs were there, like you should have been very aware.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And and I'll say this too because I think that it matters, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't know that love necessarily blinds you, but there are these moments in time where you have to take a step back and ask yourself, what's really going on here?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What am I missing?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what do you think of the things that that you missed?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are some of the signs and the indicators, things that you wish that you would have seen or understood?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think the two for me are boundaries in self respect or self love, because if you have good boundaries and you love yourself, people can't knock those down and push down your value set.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in the beginning, I did a lot of like playcating, you know, like I, she would push back on things that I would just give in because I was like, in my mind, it was compromising some shape or form in the relationship and that's what people do in relationships.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, my boundaries are didn't respect these rules I was putting in place that, you know, aligned with my values.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think in the beginning, we really have to look at, is this a supportive relationship, is this someone who's respecting your boundaries, treating you with, you know, love and respect, because of those things are missing in the beginning, imagine eight years deep, you know, what kind of decision someone's making if they don't have those pieces.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm going to go deep.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, feel free to take up space here because I think that people really need to understand this when when I when I hear stories like this and obviously I don't know you well enough to be able to make the assessment based, but I'm sharing on my experience.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When I look back at a couple of relationships I've had over the years where I was very much a playcater or I was a yes person where I was in a lot of ways also codependent, I realized that it was a direct reflection of what my childhood looked like.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had so many boundaries disrupted predominantly from my mother, from my stepfather, from my grandmother, where as a child, I didn't understand that no could me know.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand that yes could mean yes, it just always felt like whatever other people had or wanted I had to give no matter what and like really crazy the part about it that and I look back and I got it so fucking cringe are these moments where there's just this this is what I will call weakness these moments when I would give in.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, especially in my 20s, you know, over 40 now, I had a lot of growth, a lot of experience.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But I go look at 20, 25 year old me, 18 year old me and these relationships.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then even at my early 30s, as I was really diving into a deeper level of this journey of healing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, there's no better way to phrase it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of get disgusted in a lot of ways with myself, but also it was learning.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had to unlearn

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[SPEAKER_00]: all of the things that I had been taught about what it meant to be a man, about what it meant to actually be a provider, what it meant to say no, to have boundaries, to do these things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm wondering from your perspective and your experience, do you think that your childhood kind of played factor into what eventually would transpire?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I think we talked a little bit that you and I have kind of similar backgrounds.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was molested as a kid.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I went to my caregivers about it and they didn't really do anything about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No matter how much I talked about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that kind of set the stage in my head that, you know, you're not important.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Your boundaries are important, your needs are important.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I grew up with, you know, caregivers that were very, you know, it's going to be our way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's just how it is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to follow mine and you're going to do what we say.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what we expect of you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, when you grow up in that environment, you don't have a sense of self as you kind of hinted to or alluded to.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You grow up in this environment where you become a moldable piece of clay for the people who are in charge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that you don't get your weapons or you don't get your, you know, you get your dessert.

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[SPEAKER_01]: How do you want to say it?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that presented challenge this for me because when I came out of my parent's house, I was 18.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I went to college a virgin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was very, you know, sheltered in some ways from how the world works and what kind of people are out there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I came out of my house and stepped on every land mine you can imagine.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the next 20 years unfortunately, because when you grow up with people who don't respect your boundaries much like you're saying,

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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, you get in this routine of just assuming that people should walk all over you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I had kids and then I kind of felt somewhere in my mind that my form of love to them was to give tirelessly to them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But what ends up happening is it creates this impression that you'll always just give everything you have to that person without any, you know, repercussions or boundaries or, you know, any reciprocation of that kind of level of

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was a lot for me to process too because my ex took advantage of that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That was how she kind of got in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She recognized that I was a giver and that I'm very caring about the people I love.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you have the wrong kind of person show up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Next thing you know, you're getting sucked dry because that's just how they know how to operate.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think one of the hard parts, you know, my I said this before my my mother was a master manipulator and one of the things that happened is you just kind of learn this is my experience obviously I learned that by me being whatever she needed me to be I would have quote unquote love.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And God, well, imagine what that plays out into your teens and your adulthood.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want a wildly different direction than you because when I was 18, 20, 25, I mean, I was just sleeping with everyone possible.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and this is something I've shared openly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not proud of it, but I had something that, and those moments, I thought that love and connection was my body.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that came from being molested as a child.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunate thing that you and I share and common in many other men, and many women who listen to this show, and it turns you into a real shell of oneself because it's the greatest violation that anyone could ever go through.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so,

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[SPEAKER_00]: On this one hand, I do see, you know, guys who go in one direction and again, I'm not labeling you, but I see that as one path and then I see myself as this other path and then you kind of just kind of accept the reality of it for a while.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And what I thought was really strange for me, especially as my friends kind of cheered on the behavior when I was young, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I haven't said this on the podcast in a long time, but I've only ever had one nickname other than coach in my life

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[SPEAKER_00]: This will age me and it was my space horror because I was just like I would hang out with my buddies and like, oh, there's my space for going and doing this thing again and and I wish that one of these guys would have just set me down and like, hey, man, you don't have to be this way, whatever you're looking for out there, you're not going to find it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, and some curious when when you're in all of this, what is happening with the people around you are are they noticing are they talking to you are like, hey Justin dude, you got a Like a bit of a phrase like, you got a man up you got to like be able to say no you got to set these boundaries, but what what was happening with the people in your life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the people in my life were mostly my family for a long period of time, I moved back to town where I grew up and so I was surrounded by my family and it was, that was part of the problem.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I started realizing when I went to treatment to recover from what my ex-wife did to me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would tell my story and people would cry for me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was this real, like, big adjustment for me because I was used to my family treating it like, oh, get over it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's your problem?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Aren't you over it yet?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been 30 years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you brushed this off.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas, you know, I talk to other people and they cry and give me sympathy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just this real, like awakening, like holy shit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is how real people respond to, you know, someone who's gone through trauma.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was part of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I shared kind of the same thing as you after my first divorce why went and I saw happiness through looking up with times of women and what I realized was too full number one, that's not where happiness is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And number two, that's never going to fill the emotional void that we have in ourselves.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It actually creates a weakness or an entry point for manipulation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I fell into with my x-wife, you know, and I've fixed this part of myself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't rely on sex as this, like,

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[SPEAKER_01]: thing to fill my, you know, void when I'm unhappy or, you know, whatever, but it took a while to understand that that was really such a negative like component of how I processed my emotions or how I thought happiness because it it's not we're happiness is happiness is and fulfilling yourself through activities or social connections or.

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[SPEAKER_01]: creating something that's meaningful to you, not in these like go out and bag that ten or bag that nine, and then brag to your buddies about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that part of it was transformational, because when I went to treatment, I really looked at all my ugly parts, and I was like, how can I make sure that I'm the best person I can be?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And part of that means healing the parts of you that allow these bad people

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, build up yourself worth through, like, believing in yourself and loving yourself again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's wild.

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[SPEAKER_00]: As you were talking, I had this thought or it was memory, I should say, I lived in Portland, Oregon, for a long while, and one of the places that I would frequent on Saturday mornings were AA and essay meetings.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I've never, alcohol was never my thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: like that was never my advice.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was always sex and women and it was always this thing about the physical connection because you know if I can have sex with you, you must love me and I must have value and I would sit in these rooms and it's shocking how many men are in these rooms having the same conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: People are nervous that like it's wild, how many people like do not know this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And also, that's rooms full of rhythm.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Haven't the same experience and just another crazy part when I'll never forget this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like one of these cold, gross, you know, probably January, February, Portland, Pacific Northwest days.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd gotten to the facility, was that like old high school or something, and we're in this room.

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[SPEAKER_00]: it must have been the day, maybe it was just circumstance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really know, but everyone in that room that day had been like, yeah, I was also molested.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that that's a part of why behaved this way.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I can't help but think about the price that we have to pay as little kids will become adults because of those experiences.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's why I was a virgin until I was 18.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I had multiple opportunities and as soon as a girl would like touch a part of body that like gave me the idea that it's headed that way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to figure out how to get the hell out of that situation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because it was scary.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I couldn't get massages until maybe 10 years ago because it felt gross having people touch me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Even still, if someone comes up to me when I was in treatment, a guy came up to me and just rub my shoulder.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I like jumped out of the seat and he, you know, I felt bad because he got offended but I'm like, dude, you know, this isn't anything I have control over it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Just it puts you on edge and it changes touch and it changes the reward system, you know, like being exposed to sexual stimulation at a young age, like your brain shouldn't even like know that that's a pleasure center for your body at that age and it really messes you up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's unfortunate.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's part of the,

18:23.118 --> 18:35.713
[SPEAKER_01]: part of the struggle is you live with that legacy, the rest of your life and you kind of have to figure out how to pull those roots out of yourself so that, you know, it doesn't carry on that legacy until the day you die.

18:37.597 --> 18:41.879
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think stepping in and doing the work is that, right?

18:42.039 --> 18:56.545
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, and it's sitting in it, and you know, one of the reasons of how these conversations with men over the years and my willingness to talk about this is because for a long time, it was, it was my identity that wasn't exposed.

18:56.885 --> 19:00.346
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I mean by that is like I cared it all deeply internal.

19:00.886 --> 19:02.567
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't understand the behaviors.

19:02.607 --> 19:04.828
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't understand the things that I was doing.

19:05.328 --> 19:18.976
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one day I realize like if I don't sit and have this conversation with a professional somebody who can guide me through why I'm doing what I'm doing, I'm probably not going to live much longer.

19:19.156 --> 19:22.377
[SPEAKER_00]: That was part of my rock bottom experience in my mid-20s.

19:22.458 --> 19:25.859
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just looking at it and going like, yo, I got to do something different.

19:26.380 --> 19:28.101
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know, it's weird.

19:28.261 --> 19:29.241
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this odd

19:30.682 --> 19:36.965
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of almost celebration, if you will, where if a young boy has sex, it's celebrated, right?

19:37.505 --> 19:42.648
[SPEAKER_00]: And if a young girl has sex, it's like the worst thing that's ever happened.

19:43.088 --> 19:45.989
[SPEAKER_00]: And in both case scenarios, it's like those are children.

19:46.549 --> 19:54.593
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny because you see now a lot of the exposure happening with like teachers getting caught molesting or having sex with young boys.

19:54.953 --> 19:56.454
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'll read the comments and I'm like,

19:56.854 --> 19:58.155
[SPEAKER_00]: My God, these are children.

19:58.175 --> 20:04.378
[SPEAKER_00]: People like celebrating it, like it's the greatest thing that's ever happened, like their children being taken advantage of.

20:04.759 --> 20:12.123
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in this one weird hand, it kind of creates this path towards your entire identity and experience.

20:12.923 --> 20:25.328
[SPEAKER_00]: It shapes you in the worst ways and then it lead you down this path to where you don't even know how to be a man because so much of it was stripped from you before you had the opportunity to discover who you are.

20:26.008 --> 20:29.810
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm curious for you and your experience.

20:30.590 --> 20:48.932
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did the real crux to like the transformation start to take place where you did start to build confidence where you did start to have identity where you did start to work through boundaries and how did you handle the the narrative that was internalized about what had happened to you.

20:51.057 --> 20:54.998
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my read building came after treatment.

20:55.078 --> 20:57.479
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I had a lot of classes.

20:57.539 --> 20:59.920
[SPEAKER_01]: I did much similar to what you were saying.

20:59.940 --> 21:00.720
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost died.

21:00.900 --> 21:03.781
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was very much a watershed moment for me.

21:04.541 --> 21:07.142
[SPEAKER_01]: My blood pressure was 180 over 120.

21:07.182 --> 21:10.423
[SPEAKER_01]: My resting heart rate was 100 beats per minute, even on medication.

21:11.143 --> 21:13.584
[SPEAKER_01]: And I lost 40 pounds in two months.

21:14.144 --> 21:16.645
[SPEAKER_01]: But much like you, I literally like I went into treatment.

21:16.665 --> 21:17.005
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like,

21:17.805 --> 21:20.790
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to do this sort of I'm a die like there's no other option.

21:21.050 --> 21:32.327
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went in and looked at all parts of myself and how I handled sex, how people were able to get in and manipulate me and and I think for me.

21:33.572 --> 21:38.355
[SPEAKER_01]: realizing that I had an unhealthy relationship with sex, pushed it away from me.

21:38.975 --> 21:57.085
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I soon realized that a lot of my problems, my two X-Lives, especially, came from letting women in to have sex with them and then to fall out that happened from that because I wasn't evaluating them as a partner, I just wanted to get laid and it turned into this other thing because of it.

21:57.965 --> 22:17.292
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I, I have really dove in to try and fix that sexualized molestation, how it has shaped me into feeling that myself worth comes from bag and a bunch of women or, you know, my friends thinking I'm cool because I got that girl or that, you know, it's just a very unhealthy way of thinking and a very, uh,

22:18.532 --> 22:23.474
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, bad source for a pleasure center for a human being because it's superficial.

22:23.494 --> 22:28.076
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't give you the real what makes you feel good inside.

22:28.196 --> 22:37.379
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not that healing force that, you know, as you get older, like, you know, I'm so glad I processed that or I'm so glad I, you know, went and hooked up with all those women.

22:37.419 --> 22:44.001
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is one of those things you actually feel guilty about and shameful of and you feel dirty as you get older thinking back on it.

22:44.041 --> 22:45.602
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how did I do that?

22:47.103 --> 22:53.976
[SPEAKER_01]: I must have been in a horrible mental state if I was, you know, succumbing to that kind of behavior or temptation, I should say.

22:55.038 --> 22:57.202
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think sometimes it's

22:58.593 --> 23:23.885
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if this was true for you but I had this moment where I was just I was in men's group therapy and it's one of the greatest things I've ever done in my life and I was the youngest guy in that room because I was probably 30 might have been 29 29 30 and I'm the youngest guy in this group by 15 years by the way and and I'm sitting in this room and just listening to conversations and.

23:24.585 --> 23:27.686
[SPEAKER_00]: being supported in my conversation.

23:28.226 --> 23:31.968
[SPEAKER_00]: And do the first time that I was like, this is what happened to me?

23:31.988 --> 23:34.629
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, dude, I was so terrified.

23:35.529 --> 23:37.090
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I can't even express.

23:37.490 --> 23:39.931
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been and probably a hundred fights.

23:40.291 --> 23:41.632
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had guns pulled on me.

23:41.912 --> 23:42.812
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been shot at.

23:42.852 --> 23:44.113
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I ran the streets as a kid.

23:44.133 --> 23:45.053
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm from.

23:45.413 --> 23:49.895
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've had really insane experiences, near death experiences.

23:50.415 --> 24:00.445
[SPEAKER_00]: I've spoken on stage from a 10,000 people, there's this podcast, you know, all the things that I've done, nothing in my life was as terrifying as that moment of sitting in that space.

24:01.206 --> 24:03.608
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, nothing was as healing.

24:04.068 --> 24:10.194
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it was the first time I don't want to use the word scene because I wouldn't be fair to the experience.

24:10.715 --> 24:12.536
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the first time I told the truth.

24:13.297 --> 24:19.319
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was also the first time that in that truth, I didn't have to worry about shame or judgment.

24:19.639 --> 24:22.500
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just people who go, yeah, I get that.

24:23.300 --> 24:26.081
[SPEAKER_00]: What was one of the more pivotal turning points for you?

24:26.101 --> 24:33.224
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there is a mask on us because I want to encourage people to understand that this doesn't go away if you don't talk about it.

24:33.644 --> 24:42.087
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm just wondering for you, what was what was a pivotal turning point of a moment of like having that weight lifted off of your

24:45.996 --> 25:04.227
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when I started realizing that the stuff I was working on and that the techniques I was using was starting to chip away at what was bothering me because I, you know, I was on I'm still on four to five sleep meds to be able to sleep at night and going to treatment was the pivotal point for me.

25:04.467 --> 25:13.413
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, much like you said being at a room with people who have, and I for lack of a better term as fucked up stories as I do or as you do or as other people do.

25:14.133 --> 25:18.896
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something to be said about being around people like that and be on an openly talk about your trauma.

25:19.116 --> 25:27.000
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it absolutely lifts the weight off your chest and, you know, even being on these podcasts talking about my life experience.

25:27.040 --> 25:28.000
[SPEAKER_01]: That's healing to me.

25:28.461 --> 25:34.904
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, I'm, you're talking about what happened to me in a context where it's healthy and normal to talk about.

25:34.924 --> 25:40.267
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like I'm on the street corner, you know, scaring people being like, I don't molested or, you know, something like that.

25:41.027 --> 25:49.852
[SPEAKER_01]: It gives you a way to talk about it and process it because I think what a lot of people fail to do is to speak it into existence.

25:50.392 --> 26:00.037
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's almost like this bad story or movie that happened to them that they feel like they have to keep inside and it eats in their, you know, in their chest.

26:00.117 --> 26:03.099
[SPEAKER_01]: It eats away at their health because they feel such shame.

26:03.739 --> 26:06.841
[SPEAKER_01]: But the reality of this, we're not the ones who should feel shame.

26:07.301 --> 26:08.222
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the people who did

26:10.783 --> 26:19.270
[SPEAKER_01]: The way I look at it is we are now gladiators for inner child and we get to be the tough one and tell that inner child they don't need to cry anymore.

26:19.310 --> 26:20.651
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to be scared anymore.

26:20.671 --> 26:27.317
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't need to walk through the surf and worried about something happening to them because we're here to protect them now and they can just hang out.

26:29.451 --> 26:36.136
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think also all out from my perspective, it's also recognizing there's no shame in this.

26:36.657 --> 26:39.479
[SPEAKER_00]: And that feels like such a wild disconnect.

26:39.699 --> 26:42.862
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, even in the space where like, man, I got taken advantage of it.

26:42.882 --> 26:44.463
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in this bad relationship.

26:44.884 --> 26:46.025
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no shame in that.

26:46.385 --> 27:07.720
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's lessons, and it's certainly, and I think that like many people have learned a lot of lessons, mainly the hard way, I think that's probably my personality, but I've ran those lessons, and I think so much of the journey is that, like can you sit in the reality of the moment and not judge yourself for it, and I think that we live in this,

27:08.340 --> 27:20.869
[SPEAKER_00]: weird space and time where everyone thinks they have to be perfect, and it's just like you're not a menu add on childhood trauma, you know, and for me I have a score of 10, I had just a fucking brutal childhood.

27:21.309 --> 27:34.398
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I make mistakes all the time, and here's what's crazy, millions of people listen to this podcast, thousands of people go through my coaching programs, tens of thousands of people bought my books, and I'm still like yo, I fuck up all the time.

27:34.958 --> 27:49.480
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the difference for me now, especially versus 2025, even early 30s, was I'm willing to sit in the reality that today is just going to be another lesson.

27:50.041 --> 27:53.403
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just another opportunity to learn and do something differently.

27:53.823 --> 28:04.728
[SPEAKER_00]: And also I had to learn to give myself grace because I used to beat myself up so hard about the decisions thinking to myself, well, what kind of man does stuff like this?

28:04.788 --> 28:09.370
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, the kind of man who suffered a tremendously difficult experience.

28:10.130 --> 28:21.377
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I think that grace is a really powerful tool that more people should really contemplate adding to their arsenal, because it's like, fuck, the world already is beating you up enough.

28:21.417 --> 28:32.303
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why you're doing it to yourself, what, what for you became the language that you would use for yourself, because I think a lot of people, there, there's like this click.

28:33.343 --> 28:35.885
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of like a flip the switch flipping.

28:36.366 --> 28:54.020
[SPEAKER_00]: We're suddenly you recognize oh my god I'm a fucking asshole to myself I have seen this in every person I've ever coach so I feel really strongly that I can say that supplies probably to you as well And there's one thing a if that's true and then b what is the backside of that journey?

28:55.465 --> 28:55.987
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny.

28:56.007 --> 29:02.966
[SPEAKER_01]: You brought up that phrase because that's one of my favorite phrases that I used on myself for the last two years, uh, because we we.

29:04.692 --> 29:19.422
[SPEAKER_01]: As people who want to get better and grow, we put some pressure on ourselves about, you know, I should be on this trajectory, or I should have gotten this done today, or you know, all my friends have done, or at this point in their life, and I should be there too, or whatever those things are.

29:19.442 --> 29:30.290
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important to remind ourselves, number one, we're human, number one, we're not, you know, this invincible person who can just snap their fingers and get whatever done when we want.

29:31.471 --> 29:37.356
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the giving yourself graces, huge, I think being mindful is really important and being present.

29:38.477 --> 29:46.084
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're present in every moment that you're in and you give it mindfulness, you actually think about what you want to outcome to be.

29:46.664 --> 30:09.339
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the person you're with and engaging conversation where you're being thoughtful and treating them thoughtfully, things turn out a lot better for you because you're actually paying attention to what your needs are as a human and the other people you're interacting with and treating like real humans and being in the moment, rather than, you know, sitting on your phone like this while you're talking to someone and looking back and forth,

30:10.719 --> 30:21.841
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, those kinds of things matter, especially these days, where it's not common for people to be mindful and present and be patient and understanding when someone doesn't get it right the first time.

30:22.782 --> 30:39.365
[SPEAKER_01]: All of these are really important because, you know, there's a lot of stressors we put on ourselves that are so unnecessary that are like repeating story from one of the other people in our life that have said that thing so much that it's now this voice in our head that like kind of pecks at us.

30:39.955 --> 30:42.516
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important to really ask yourself that too.

30:42.917 --> 30:43.837
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that voice?

30:43.957 --> 30:45.358
[SPEAKER_01]: Where is that voice coming from?

30:45.498 --> 30:48.599
[SPEAKER_01]: Whose voice is that that's saying these negative things to me?

30:48.619 --> 30:51.301
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that'll better help people understand.

30:51.341 --> 30:53.042
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's not you do.

30:53.102 --> 31:01.006
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's some other person from your past that, you know, corrupted the way you think or view yourself or, you know, the value set you have.

31:01.546 --> 31:05.208
[SPEAKER_01]: And now you're struggling because that needs to be pulled out of your head.

31:05.748 --> 31:15.310
[SPEAKER_01]: And you need to remind yourself that you're a good person, you're on the right path, you're doing it right, you know, all those kind of positive reinforcements that we use humans need to hear, especially from ourselves.

31:17.210 --> 31:27.412
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned the word needs and I wrote this note as you were talking because how do you understand needs when you've never been to show that you're allowed to have them.

31:28.973 --> 31:31.113
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, and so for you, what was that like?

31:33.460 --> 31:51.312
[SPEAKER_01]: The self-love piece was really hard for me when I came out of treatment or like understanding that I had needs because I was so used to people just kind of walking all over me that I always thought externally about needs like they need something that person needs something and I never first second would think about myself.

31:52.112 --> 32:16.275
[SPEAKER_01]: And what ended up happening is I would live outside of my value set and for myself and I'd be unhappy I'd be in a bad place emotionally or mentally and I couldn't understand why and it made a lot of sense once I understood that, you know, once you define your value set and once you live by that value set these other things kind of don't happen as much where you beat yourself up or you feel ashamed or you feel like you're not doing enough.

32:17.578 --> 32:24.999
[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot to kind of transform those inner parts of ourselves that kind of lead us down the bad paths mentally or otherwise.

32:27.580 --> 32:29.101
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do with that then?

32:29.121 --> 32:31.401
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you assess them?

32:31.441 --> 32:32.361
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you understand them?

32:32.581 --> 32:33.722
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I agree with you.

32:33.742 --> 32:41.223
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in this place where I just could not for the life of me understand what the hell people were talking about when they're like you have needs.

32:41.644 --> 32:44.364
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it just will such a wild disconnect.

32:44.964 --> 32:46.085
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you a great example.

32:46.245 --> 32:47.065
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never forget this.

32:47.485 --> 32:53.987
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a friend of mine who invited me to go to this country concert and just and I fucking hate country music.

32:54.007 --> 32:55.247
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to call it what it is.

32:56.066 --> 32:57.829
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, dude, you just got to come.

32:57.849 --> 32:58.990
[SPEAKER_00]: I got this extra ticket.

32:59.090 --> 33:00.212
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to lose the money.

33:00.272 --> 33:01.294
[SPEAKER_00]: Just it's 20 bucks.

33:01.334 --> 33:02.716
[SPEAKER_00]: Just give me 20 bucks, you can come.

33:03.156 --> 33:04.839
[SPEAKER_00]: And my eyes don't even want to do that.

33:04.919 --> 33:07.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no part of anything that I want to do.

33:07.442 --> 33:08.283
[SPEAKER_00]: And then boom, guess what?

33:08.304 --> 33:10.026
[SPEAKER_00]: I find myself at this country concert.

33:10.587 --> 33:12.489
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it was like the way I would date women.

33:12.890 --> 33:15.412
[SPEAKER_00]: boom, I'd find myself in situations I didn't want to be in.

33:15.852 --> 33:21.676
[SPEAKER_00]: Career to, I mean, man, especially my first business as I was growing that, I would just say yes to everyone.

33:21.776 --> 33:23.558
[SPEAKER_00]: Even stuff was like, I don't want to fucking do this.

33:23.658 --> 33:24.398
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would say yes.

33:24.879 --> 33:32.704
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just, yes, yes, yes, yes, all the time to the point where sometimes it wouldn't even make sense just across the board of my entire life.

33:33.785 --> 33:52.989
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in this therapy 10 years ago with Malva therapist who's still to this day is like my guy and we're talking about needs and you might as well have been talking about astrophysics because I'm like what in the hell are you talking about man and then we started walking the path and I understood it and I started to recognize it and I saw how

33:53.449 --> 34:02.577
[SPEAKER_00]: my needs were always last and like oh obviously this is a deep reflection of the experience that I had growing up in a home where if you were sick you would get beat.

34:02.977 --> 34:05.499
[SPEAKER_00]: Right and you're like okay well shit this really adds up.

34:06.059 --> 34:07.761
[SPEAKER_00]: So how did you discover needs?

34:07.821 --> 34:09.422
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you start to embrace them?

34:09.702 --> 34:12.705
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I guess really most importantly how do you honor them?

34:14.622 --> 34:22.252
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the thing I noticed was that my needs, you know, part of the reason was that I didn't have self-respect in a way.

34:22.492 --> 34:25.736
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, like, I didn't have self-preservation in mind.

34:26.337 --> 34:29.041
[SPEAKER_01]: And so my needs were just pushed off on the back end.

34:29.321 --> 34:30.242
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think,

34:30.943 --> 34:39.306
[SPEAKER_01]: part of that self preservation or understanding that I'm a human who needs food, sleep, you know, all the other things that everyone else needs.

34:40.127 --> 34:59.195
[SPEAKER_01]: It started bubbling to the top as a priority and the self-love piece kind of fell in that to that too because once you start loving yourself and I mean truly loving yourself not getting that extra Twinky but like going to bed on time eating good healthy food, hydrating, you know all those kinds of things that are kind of

34:59.975 --> 35:02.598
[SPEAKER_01]: basic core needs that a human has.

35:03.378 --> 35:21.775
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you start treating yourself to those, I feel like you know, the needs kind of bubble up to with it because you start realizing that it's okay for me to have a need for something and it's, you know, no one's going to come in and like destroy it or, you know, come in and say, no, you don't get that, you know, and pick it off the table or whatever else.

35:21.855 --> 35:22.116
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just

35:22.956 --> 35:37.695
[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of I feel like some of these things as you get into the routine of just habit of loving yourself and creating boundaries and self or stuck self preservation it naturally just bubbles up because you're the way you think in the context in which you think is so different.

35:39.163 --> 35:48.109
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very true, let's talk about needs from a relationship standpoint because I think this is one of the key areas where people turn themselves off.

35:48.789 --> 35:59.216
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for many years as a coach people, I've seen them be able to go and be rock star leaders in business and then they come home in their door mats and that's men and women by the way.

36:00.837 --> 36:08.182
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the neat, let me rephrase that, how do you find the way to express and then hold true needs in a relationship?

36:08.742 --> 36:18.369
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the things that you wish you would have understood about the way that you could hold boundaries and keep true to yourself in the context of intimacy?

36:19.809 --> 36:25.814
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the thing I realized most is that people respect you more if you have strong boundaries.

36:26.750 --> 36:30.733
[SPEAKER_01]: because people these days get walked over whatever else.

36:31.134 --> 36:36.839
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not used to someone who can present that boundary, but not in a aggressive way or anything like that.

36:36.859 --> 36:39.021
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not that I'm sorry I don't do that.

36:39.041 --> 36:41.142
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people

36:41.843 --> 36:48.166
[SPEAKER_01]: with strong value sets are actually inspiring to other people because most people don't have that.

36:48.266 --> 36:54.589
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when they see someone exhibit those values or that, you know, the strong boundaries, they actually respect them more.

36:55.089 --> 36:56.910
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's one thing I didn't really realize.

36:56.990 --> 37:01.672
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, in my head, I was like, oh, man, if I say no, they're going to move on to the next person.

37:01.732 --> 37:09.055
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, or if I say no, then this is going to be that chip in the, in the foundation, that, you know, ruins the relationship.

37:09.535 --> 37:14.801
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just part of that negative self talk that was in me or I guess the the interfere mongering.

37:14.842 --> 37:17.064
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know a way to kind of verbalize it.

37:17.144 --> 37:25.715
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, it takes a while to realize that no one's going to run away if you have these boundaries and if you respect yourself, they're actually going to like you more.

37:28.094 --> 37:29.755
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you do that then, right?

37:29.775 --> 37:31.617
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's ultimately the question, right?

37:31.637 --> 37:41.205
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the part of it where it's this, I dare say, high flu and high level ideological experience of, I need boundaries.

37:41.585 --> 37:52.014
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's the, I have to do this for myself, while simultaneously knowing that me standing up for myself and having boundaries.

37:52.034 --> 37:53.856
[SPEAKER_00]: So I look at it as standing up for yourself,

37:54.456 --> 37:58.019
[SPEAKER_00]: can dramatically change the dynamic of this relationship.

37:58.359 --> 37:59.140
[SPEAKER_00]: And I might lose it.

37:59.941 --> 38:00.821
[SPEAKER_00]: And it might go away.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to be steadfast in that because the thing I've learned is especially if you're like with someone in the healing journey,

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[SPEAKER_00]: who you are in that moment when you two come together, once you start this path and you realize, hey, wait a second, I'm getting one over, I'm a dormant, this isn't what I want.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I need to stay in that for myself.

38:24.606 --> 38:29.012
[SPEAKER_00]: You very likely on the back side of this are going to be out of a relationship.

38:29.512 --> 38:30.072
[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen it happen so many times.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How do you navigate that?

38:33.533 --> 38:41.716
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it feels like the most important thing that you do as a human, while also you're more than likely inevitably going to lose some.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I heard a great phrase and treatment that I think sums this up perfectly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Healthy people don't want to be with sick people.

38:52.479 --> 38:54.099
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, once you become healthy,

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to leave because you're going to realize this person is bringing me down.

39:00.116 --> 39:07.863
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like if you quit smoking and then someone's smoking a pack a day of reds, you know, you're not going to want to be with that person because you guys don't share the same guys.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think, you know, I think people need to understand.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: part of the healing process does mean you're going to date different people than you use to, because your picker is now going to get fixed and you're going to end up with people who have healthier habits or lifestyles.

39:24.252 --> 39:34.076
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like if you go on a diet and you start exercising, you're not going to want to be with the person who sits on the couch all day, you didn't jump food, you're going to go look for someone who now shares your value set.

39:35.646 --> 39:42.174
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then maybe the space where you to walk a path of finding the new identity together.

39:42.534 --> 39:54.729
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it always ends up in things not working, but you know, on a long enough timeline, I think one of the most difficult things about dating and relationships is you have to put yourself first.

39:55.230 --> 40:08.969
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's such a hard thing for people to understand if they grew up like us and your co-dependent and your yes person and you had all these things happen, it feels so foreign, but it's like if you don't put yourself first, nobody's going to.

40:09.846 --> 40:19.190
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that one of the things that I, I look at in my life today is I have a very immense sense of pride for my ability to be like, no.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes, dude, this is what's crazy.

40:21.872 --> 40:29.855
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes, I'm just like, no, but people will say, you give me the longest sentence, the biggest diet tribe, all of the reasons why I should do something.

40:30.276 --> 40:32.577
[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's not on the line, not with me, I'll let it just like, no.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I won't even go past.

40:34.597 --> 40:35.478
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, no.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to encourage people to honor the know.

40:39.259 --> 40:40.799
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've said this for years.

40:40.859 --> 40:46.401
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hold by this to be the biggest truth of what this is that I've done with Think and Broken.

40:46.421 --> 40:53.623
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's this healing journey is about saying, no to what you want to say no to and saying yes to what you want to say yes to.

40:53.963 --> 40:57.924
[SPEAKER_00]: And then everything else can far by the wayside because it doesn't actually matter anyway.

40:58.964 --> 41:18.768
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, one of the things that that I found to be super encouraging about your journey and inspirational in a lot of senses that you've made the decision to turn all of this chaos that was the experience that has shaped you into the man you are today into something to be benefit to other people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd love for you to take a minute and talk about this new project you're working on and why it's so important to you.

41:26.015 --> 41:34.517
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, one thing I realized when I was in treatment and what I was going through is that I was in a unique position to help people with my experience.

41:34.537 --> 41:39.398
[SPEAKER_01]: I was part of a psychological test publishing company for a good portion of my life.

41:40.638 --> 41:45.799
[SPEAKER_01]: And I realized that I've worked on an app that was used for recognizing the signs and symptoms of a concussion.

41:45.819 --> 41:49.140
[SPEAKER_01]: There was the first one for the iPhone in 2011.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to apply the same kind of technique to fixing this kind of problem.

41:55.781 --> 42:02.203
[SPEAKER_01]: So I, in trying to figure out what happened in my relationship, I came up with a list of both of red flags I missed.

42:03.043 --> 42:05.984
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, holy crap, this is like a flag parade.

42:06.184 --> 42:11.205
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I should really come up with all the red flags I can come up with and I spent,

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[SPEAKER_01]: 18 months doing that, and it ended up creating an app that helps people evaluate their relationships for red flags or deception and manipulation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's some other tools in there too, but the goal was to use my horrific experience to save other people.

42:29.495 --> 42:57.541
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, this could either be the story that nearly killed me or this could be the the Phoenix rising story where I come out like a rocket ship at the end and use my experience to save other people, you know, I've had a wonderful reactions to that there's hundreds of people that are using it already and I'm launching or by the time this air is the website will be the web version will be launched, but the goal is to create a tools that the safe people from this.

42:57.741 --> 43:09.810
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the day team year old that comes out of their parents house like me that's a virgin that's not dated a lot of people, you know, doesn't have an understanding of where the line landmines are and what what they're like.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This was the perfect tool for my younger self to avoid that outcome and avoid the trauma and and not end up with complex PTSD and all these other diagnosis, you know.

43:20.798 --> 43:28.364
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that really leaves a lasting scar, and if I can help people avoid that, then I'm doing an amazing job.

43:30.130 --> 43:36.992
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a me, I just always have felt like, if I can help other people, I should.

43:37.852 --> 43:40.512
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why this platform exists.

43:40.532 --> 43:42.613
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why conversations like this exist.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to encourage people to explore that website to explore the app.

43:47.774 --> 43:52.775
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, guys, you can go to think on brokenpodcast.com because we'll have all that in the show notes.

43:53.395 --> 43:58.537
[SPEAKER_00]: But Justin, for those who want to connect with you, before I ask you my last question, how can they do that?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, they can go to the website.

44:02.419 --> 44:10.466
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a cray.app, C-R-A-Y.A-P-P or they can look it up in the app store under cray-dash dating safety.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They can find us on socials at cray.app on the usual platforms.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's free to use for the main parts of it.

44:20.242 --> 44:28.667
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't feel like I can rescue people from trauma and and make a major impact by charging money for people to even get in the door.

44:28.767 --> 44:34.010
[SPEAKER_01]: So the craze floor in the scanner score are free and people can use it as much as they want free of cost.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant.

44:35.531 --> 44:41.355
[SPEAKER_00]: And guys, again, you can go to think on broken podcasts.com and check out Justin's episode for all of that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean

44:48.433 --> 45:11.769
[SPEAKER_01]: It means to be on broken would that mean that my past trauma from my previous years and life did not dictate my future, you know, when you're broken, you that trauma kind of leads the horse, so to speak, and I feel like taking the power back and becoming on broken means that you now are in control of the horse and you're driving the cart.

45:13.054 --> 45:13.314
[SPEAKER_00]: love it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so true.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've seen it in myself, people like you, thousands of people throughout the years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And my hope is that for people listening today that this will encourage them, whether you're anywhere in the journey that sounds remotely close to where just and where I have been, or if you're in a place Paul opposite, but you know that there's something here that you need to deal with.

45:34.732 --> 45:37.397
[SPEAKER_00]: The only way it's going to change is if you change it.

45:38.058 --> 45:44.329
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know it's hard, I know that it's scary, I know that there's moments where you're like, why the fuck do I have to deal with that?

45:44.849 --> 45:47.414
[SPEAKER_00]: And I get it, and it's unfair, and it sucks.

45:47.835 --> 45:51.321
[SPEAKER_00]: But unless you do something about it, nothing's going to change.

45:51.942 --> 45:55.107
[SPEAKER_00]: So what that said, just to my friend, thank you so much for being here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Unbroken Nation, thank you guys for listening.

45:57.731 --> 46:03.481
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and until next time my friends, be unbroken.