Today we sit down with Jake Shannon, a mental health advocate and founder of Scientific Wrestling and a Grant Cardone Licensee. In this powerful and inspiring conversation, Jake shares his own journey with mental health and how he has used his struggles to help others find hope and healing....
See show notes at: https://www.thinkunbrokenpodcast.com/jake-shannon-living-a-10x-life-mental-health-podcast/#show-notes
Today we sit down with Jake Shannon, a mental health advocate and founder of Scientific Wrestling and a Grant Cardone Licensee. In this powerful and inspiring conversation, Jake shares his own journey with mental health and how he has used his struggles to help others find hope and healing. He also discusses the importance of self-care and offers practical tips for living a 10x life. Don't miss this thought-provoking and uplifting episode of the Think Unbroken Podcast on the importance of mental health and well-being.
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Michael: Hey, what's up Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you with aother episode, my friend Jake Shannon. In person, no less Jake brother. What's going on? How are you today?
Jake: Dude! I'm the first person in person.
Michael: You are the first person in person.
Jake: Dude. I know I'm probably blowing this outta proportion, but I'm really stoked, this is cool so dude.
Michael: Well, I'm super excited to have you here because, you know, we've connected first and foremost through this 10X community, which I'm sure we'll get into that as we go. But we have so many commonalities, so many similarities on our journey, and I thought to myself, what a better person to bring on the show. And so, for those who do not know you, tell us a little bit about you and how you got to where you are today.
Jake: Okay. So, well, I do wanna get this outta the way, thank you so much for having me on, this is super cool, man. I love this setup that you got. So, for me, I'm gonna be 49 in like a month, and I'm in a really kind of great spot in my life. I have three great kids. I have a wonderful wife. We're having a 16th anniversary tomorrow. I'm super stoked. My parents are still alive and I'm friendly with them and stuff, and so it's really a fantastic time of my life right now. But the thing that I love about what you're doing is that people need to realize that, nothing lasts forever. Bad times don't last forever, but good times don't last forever either. And it's what do you do with those times.
I think it's really important for people to take charge of that instead of, it's very easy in our culture to get sucked into kind of a pity party when challenges arises, or at least is it has been for me in the past. But you know, all of anything that I consider success in my life, I think has come from me. Sure. Maybe in the initial, depending on the severity of the shock, if it's super epic, yeah, maybe I have a little a week or two where I'm just like trying to get my bearings and get back at it. But it's super important to just focus on where you wanna go and not what you fear or what has hurt you, it's all mental. I mean, we live in a physical world, but so much of it is mental. So, for me, I really like this podcast and what you're doing because it's so much of it is about overcoming. You know, when I was a kid, I had a bunch of crazy health issues that came up, my great parents, I don't think that they were super-duper, you know, there's pre-internet, they're busy with their lives, they didn't know, they weren't invested in health and stuff they were just like average people. And I gonna be honest with you, I'm very skeptical of the medical industry now because of my experiences as a child. I think I was the victim of what's known as iatrogenic harm or medical error. I had appendectomy when I was probably nine or 10 that was botched, and I ended up having gangrene poisoning nearly dying and they did emergency surgery. I always remember this, they did emergency surgery on the 4th of July, they had to like pull the doctors off of their picnics and stuff, it was that much of an emergency. And I remember them rolling me, it was at St. Anthony's, which used to overlook Sloan's Lake here, but they destroyed it and moved it. But I was in this St. Anthony's and I can remember seeing the firework going off while I got the mask on, you know, with the anesthetic.
Michael: So, this is like middle of the night.
Jake: Yeah, it was pretty bad like, I mean, it was because this doctor who did my appendectomy, he was a small town Salida, which is right next to Buena Vista in Leadville, up in Colorado small town especially at that time, we're talking 1984 or something. And I got like gangrene poisoning, which is like something that should really be affecting people at like Little House in the Prairie Times, and just as I got back from my health back. I got hammered about five years later with a Hodgkin's lymphoma diagnosis when I was about 15. And then, I had to go through all the chemotherapy and radiation and it just destroyed me, man. I mean, I had always been a very active kid, very physical, but these just kept setting me back. I think one of the things that really got me through a lot of these things and has helped me through life, I mean, you know me through this personal development space, but you also know me because of the personal development space of my work in like wrestling and grappling and martial arts and things like that and that was a huge, I think there's something to be said for heroes. You know, having idols or somebody that you're trying to be like when you're not there, when you're broken, you know, when you're having a really hard time, somebody to inspire you. And I remember the first inspiration was the Karate Kid movie, I had already been doing wrestling, but I never thought I had started peewee wrestling in like 1979. So, I mean, I've been on the mats for like 40 years or something. I mean, it's like ridiculous, right? But I never thought of it as a martial art, I just thought it was like something to do. And the karate kid came out and I was like, oh, to hell with this wrestling stuff. I'm gonna go do this McDojo karate stuff and I got a black belt. But then right when I got my black belts, when I got the cancer, so it was between the two illnesses I got really invested into martial arts.
Michael: And you were in your teens?
Jake: Yeah, I was like early teens, you know, I think I started when I was like 12 and got my black belt by 15 and then boom, just got the diagnosis.
Michael: That's gotta be such a mind fuck, right? Because this is the age where I'm sure you're just watching people healthy and having fun and enjoying life and I was a sick kid too. I had fucking crippling migraines. I had five or six surgeries on my finger. I was in and out of doctors having asthma attacks. I coded one time and I just remember being like, why the fuck can I not be healthy?
Jake: Yeah. And then I started having all these like kind of, I really gone into philosophy, especially when I got the cancer cuz I just had kind of, I think a lot of times when you're not confronted with serious trauma, you don't necessarily lead an examined life, you just kind of take a lot for granted. And it's when those things are taken away from you; you start like, why would God do this to me? Or, you know, like those kinds of thoughts. And then you start being like, well what if there really isn't a God in the way that I've been taught in Catholic school? You know, what if there's a different way of looking at this and I shouldn't be a victim. I shouldn't feel persecuted, I shouldn't feel maybe these are challenges that I need to overcome. You know, maybe this is the karma of my life that I could play this out a million times and be mad or blame somebody, but it doesn't matter. These are challenges that I personally had to overcome no matter what scenario.
Michael: And you realized, like as a kid going through that you were able to make meaning of that?
Jake: You know, on a philosophical level I was. I was also an only child. Right. And I think, is an interesting psychological space because in one regard I mostly dealt with adults. So, I've always been very savvy with regards to communicating at an adult level, but I didn't have any siblings. I didn't have to work out, like sharing or these like basic simple concepts. Right. And it was difficult for me when I reached adulthood, and I never was able to really bond with people in my age group. And then, you know, when I'm 15 and like I said, I was doing all these martial arts and I was working out and I'm not proud of it, but I'm gonna say, you know, I was kind of a bully honestly at that time in my life. And then all of a sudden, in the course of a summer, I go through radia radiation and chemotherapy. I'm six foot one, I grew real tall, by the time I was 15, I'm six foot one, probably about 165 pounds. And by the end of summer, when I go back to school, I'm 117 pounds. And all of a sudden now I'm on the other side of the bully equation and it was actually very difficult for me that was difficult because, you know, you're 15, you're going through puberty, you're like trying to get girls and dude, I looked like a freaking Auschwitz victim. Dude, no chick. You know, it was all pity, like at that point, you know what I mean?
Michael: Sure. And I can't imagine you had self-esteem or confidence than either.
Jake: Oh, it was rough, dude, it was really rough. But you know, the concept of rock bottom I think is different for everybody. And for me, I remember, I had been like one of those just say no kids, you know, like super until I got cancer and then I was like, fuck it. Started drinking, started smoking weed, started dropping acid. I was like, fuck it.
Michael: Like the fucking opposite thing, you should be doing when you have cancer.
Jake: Probably. But you know, the thing I will say about this that was interesting now with hindsight is how you know the efficacy of psychedelics in dealing with trauma that they're finding now. And I just ended up not doing meth or heroin. Thank God. And I ended up just being mostly into like weed, mushrooms and acid and I did a lot, I did like a lot my freshman year when I went to college, got away, got to freedom some independence, and I was like doing a lot of acid. And I think it did two things, I think it did help me process a lot of the trauma I had as a kid and kind of get over it and then it also helped me hit that rock bottom where I just was disgusted with myself. One day I can remember it was spring break of freshman year and because I had always been socially awkward as a kid. I didn't really have any friends that I had bonded with, my roommates were really cool and they liked me and they took me under their wing, which was a crucial port part of my life as well, these roommates I ended up lucking out having in college. But I was alone, everybody else went partying on spring break and I'm in the dorms like a loser, and I'm like in the worst shape of my life, I just looked at myself in the mirror and I just was disgusted ‘cuz I'd just been smoking weed, drinking, not doing anything, and just something happened and I just got down on the floor, started trying to do pushups and I couldn't even do 10 pushups. And I remember through karate, I mean, I was banging out like a hundred pushups, you know…
Michael: Every day?
Jake: Yeah, ‘cuz you're just getting acclimated to it. And that was a real wakeup call man. And I was like, okay, I'm cold turking all this stuff, enough of this. I was disgusted. And from that moment on, I had a confluence of events that happened in that like freshman, sophomore year that ended up changing my life. One was this rock bottom; this just being disgusted. I do think that psychedelics did help me process the trauma and get beyond it. But it also, I had my priorities all messed up. I was a dumb hippie, like not really, nothing bad about hippies, but just saying like, my priorities weren't like on my health or development or growth or wealth or anything like that, you know?
So, I ended up having these roommates and they were all skateboarding enthusiasts, like nerds, they were like into it. And one of them in particular before…
Michael: Skateboarding was cool.
Jake: Dude, skateboarding was actually really cool like karate was not cool, like skateboarding was actually cool, like that could get you girls and stuff back then. But one of my roommates, his name was Michael; Michael Burnett, totally obsessed with skateboarding. Like it was kind of annoying at the time, like everything had to do with skateboarding, it was all skateboarding. And he was my roommate and he was a great guy, super nice guy, but I was not a skateboarder and so being just totally bombarded, but I sat back and I started looking at what was happening with him and his obsession and it just single-minded focus on this one subject was transforming him into a leader and he was getting like skate parks built. He was responsible for getting the first skate park built in Boulder. He's like a 20-year-old kid just because he wants a skate park, ‘cuz he is obsessed. Right? And so, I start looking at this and this is where I'm at, this rock bottom period, and they kind of took me under their wing. Now that obsession is paid off for Michael, by the way. He runs Thrasher magazine now. He's like the guy in charge of all of Thrasher, which is to me massively successful, right?
Michael: Yeah. It's very successful.
Jake: It's huge, like Thrasher's part of the iconography of like America at this point.
Michael: Truly. It's on t-shirts at Hot Topic.
Jake: I mean, it's crazy, right? And he runs that magazine, he's the editor-in-chief. But I started looking at that obsession and I was like; I just can't get into this skate thing. I picked it up, I started skating. I couldn't help it cuz it was so infectious and everybody around, started snowboarding and whatnot, but it still wasn't my passion. And I started going over an inventory of things that I had, and it went back to wrestling and martial arts and karate. And almost within a year, two big events swirled around that for me. One was the release of I think it's called Dragon, the Bruce Lee story with Jason Scott Lee. So, on that I was like, oh my God, this is so awesome, totally motivated me. And then I went to UFC two, which was held here in Denver, and those two things, I was like, this is it. I'm totally obsessed with this. This is gonna be easy. Well, it wasn't easy, but because you're obsessed, it makes it that much easier to do pretty crazy things.
Michael: Yeah. And I think obsession and that's a word that I think catches people off guard because I think, especially in this country, people hear the word obsession and they're like, oh, well, if you're obsessed with something, you don't care about anything else and you don't care about your family or your health or your business or, it's like that one thing, right? And I've always thought to myself, well, if you're not obsessed with something, then you're not going to really understand it. You're not gonna be able to build around it, you know? And just like you as a kid, I grew up wrestling. I went to wrestling camps, you know, but I actually wasn't obsessed with it. I loved it. I really enjoyed it to this day; I really love it. But you know, there was something really defeating about like getting up at 4:30 in the morning to run, dude, right? And once you get to a certain level, it's like this other kid we're so freaking good. I was just like; I don't love it this much. I'm out. But I found other things in my life that I've been obsessed with this podcast for instance, having conversations like this, learning, growing, being in environments where I can become a better version of myself like I'm obsessed with personal development, right? And I see it play out again and again and again that when I bring these things into my life, like something incredible happens. So now you're in this position. And I will say this, I probably am obsessed with UFC and MMA, right? Because it's just, I remember seeing it as a kid for the first time on like NBC nightly news and McCain was on there talking about human cock fighting. And I was in the living room with my grandma, I'll never forget this and she's like, fucking chain-smoking cigarettes cuz when you used to smoke in the house with children like psychos and I'm just watching this and enamored, and I don't think I've ever told you this. The first time I saw UFC fight, I'd went to the family video on the corner of 30th and Georgetown in Indianapolis where I grew up and this is back in the day. No bullshit. They had the beaded curtains where all the adult stuff was in the car.
Jake: It was back there?
Michael: Yeah. And on the cover, it was UFC number three and it was the octagon and you know, the big great out muscle guy. And I walked in there and it's like porn, porn, porn, porn, porn. UFC. And dude, I've gotta be 10, 11, somewhere in that window and I grab it, I go up to the front desk. And the lady looks at me, dude, I'm like this tall and she goes, are you 18? And I just go, yeah and she lets me rent UFC. And I must have watched that tape that weekend 10 times and it's been something that I've loved ever since. So, detracting from that, ‘cuz I think we could talk about that all afternoon. What started to transpire in your life? Because I know you had a lot of events, not only around that time, but into what's led you to where you are. So, what started happening in your life? You're like, okay, here's this UFC, here's martial arts. I'm obsessed with it, wrestling all this, it's starting to come together, it's starting to make sense in your head and now like I think people who know you, which I'm sure a few people listening do, they're like, oh, wow, you've been mentioned on Joe Rogan podcast and you created this mace thing and blah, blah, blah but it all started somewhere. What was the beginning of this journey like when you actually got clarity about the life you wanted to have?
Jake: Well, you know, the obsession, I think the first part, it's funny this is so perfect actually because I'm in the process of writing another book. I've probably written over a dozen at this point, but right now I'm writing a book and I'm going to, it's really talking about lessons from both wrestling and business and what I've learned from both of those businesses. And you know, I think the first step in a journey like this is that dealing with reality as it is right now and that is maybe rock bottom like when I was disgusted with myself, when I'm like, dude, this is not it. I'm not gonna live my life like this and I've had a few of these moments actually, and they're pivotal, they suck, but they're totally crucial in my opinion. And they're very personal and they're very spiritual, right? Because it's just like grabs you by the lapels and paintbrushes you kind of experiences, it's not fun. So, you know, that was one of them and I think that's absolutely crucial.
I think the second thing is to find something you're obsessed about. So, you're right, I think obsession, unless you're Calvin Klein, usually has a negative connotation in our culture. I don't think that's true. I think it's like guns or like drugs or anything, it's how they're used and that's an individualistic thing. So, like I think there could be negative, unhealthy obsessions and I think there could be completely healthy obsessions, like being healthy, like people who are very obsessed with being healthy. I can't really find much fault in that, you know? Of course, you're right. If you define obsession as doing something and neglecting other important things, yeah, that's not good. But I don't think that's necessarily for me personally, you know, and this is where definitions can be somewhat subjective. Sure, you can go look in the dictionary, but there is some wiggle room and interpretation on things.
So, for me, obsession is no different than single-minded focus, it just, the word obsession has more of emotional ooph, the more of the feel to it of what single-minded focus is. So, I think you have to have that rock bottom moment or that get real, that man in the mirror type of moment. Then I think you have to have this like decision that resonates with you, like, this is my thing. It's hard to talk outside of myself, I work a lot in coaching with people and having them try to find these obsessions and honestly one of the tricks that I do is I say, go look at your credit card and your bank statement and after you cross off all the necessities, like food and rent and all these things, what are you spending the most money on? ‘Cuz that's my guess that's what you're absolutely obsessed with.
Michael: That's a really good point.
Jake: Right? Because that's just where like what you love and what you respond to at a gut level. So, for me, once I got that focus on, I knew it had to do with grappling, I knew it started with martial arts, right? Cuz I was like, I'm not into skateboarding, right? Like you weren't into wrestling, it's cool, I still like skateboarding culture, you know, I have a skateboarding in the trunk, right? But it's not what I'm obsessed with. When I found the obsession that started me on the journey and that journey then is constantly just sharpening your ax, you know, like starting, it's like a sculpture. It starts out like this just giant blob of clay, but at least you have a blob of clay and then you start whitling it down and eventually you'll end up with a work of art if you stay on it focused long enough, and that's what happened with me. So, I ended going to UFC two totally changed my life. I was like, this is what I need to do. And so I became like stupid like a cowboy, I'm like 22 full testosterone and not a lot of experience and so, I just started doing challenge matches is everywhere. And I started getting a little bit of a reputation, like locally.
Michael: Define what that is for people who don’t know.
Jake: It wasn't full on fights, they were grappling, it was basically like, let's wrestle until the other person gives up, which was totally stupid cuz I didn't really have any training, you know, I have a lot of injuries from those day to this day but I was like, dead set like, this is it. And then I took a calculated risk, I did everything I could in Colorado, which was like nothing because there was, back in 94, this was so cutting edge and weird new like, it was in the porn section, like it was taboo, nobody wanted a piece of this. And here I am like picking fights, it was like fight club before the movie came over it came out, you know, but I couldn't find anybody. So, I ended up moving to California because that's where all the Gracie Jiujitsu people had immigrated in the United States at that time. A lot of 'em were down in Torrance with Hoist and Hoon those were the guys who actually promoted and started the UFC. I didn't know that at the time that they did it as a marketing vehicle to sell their system.
Michael: So, you're about to go in the lions then?
Jake: Well, I mean, yeah. So, I go to San Francisco because I did my research. I always try to research and work with the very best person that I possibly can, that's a way I shortcut. Tony Robbins was huge for me on that during that rock bottom period, I remember I was just like, dude, I'm such a fucking loser like I just was hating my life and I had anxiety cuz I was like, how am I gonna live? I don't know how to make money. I don't know how to do anything. I'm like 20 years old, public schools totally failed me. Like it's not prepared me for the real world and I'm just freaking out and I was up way late. And one of Tony Robbins infomercials came on. I can remember it was him and Fran Tarkington speaking at a poolside, and it was an eight-cassette unlimited power cassette. This is like before even DVD and man, I just listened to that and one of the big lessons I took was like…
Michael: Why did you order it? Because here's what I think happened so often to people. Here it is right in front of you the thing that you know you need, like something about it is calling to you. Why did you decide to order that? Because I mean, those things were like 199 back then like it was a investment.
Jake: I had no money, dude.
Michael: Especially at 20 years old with no money, dude, which is the reason why you should invest.
Jake: Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, it just spoke to me, dude. I was like a loser. And Tony basically in that infomercial late at night, totally like at the bottom he's like, dude, I could show you some tricks.
Michael: You're the target market.
Jake: Dude. It was perfect. And I totally went because of that I decided like, okay there, you know, I got deep down the NLP rabbit hole for a while and ended up getting the hell outta there cuz I just, there's a lot of it that I don't like. But that said, there's a lot that's actually super interesting and valuable and the thing that I really took out of there was modeling greatness. So, I decided, okay, the Lion of the Gracie family is what he's called his Carly Gracie was in San Francisco. I ended up having kind of a connection that might've got me a job at working in film, at a production company up north fantasy films, it was Saul Z Company. He helped produce Creed's Clearwater Revival. He produced one Fruit of the Cuckoo's Nest, and so I had this connection to go work there as an intern and then also Carly's in San Francisco. So, I'm like, screw this, I'm done. I graduate from college; I go right out there. Now I graduated with an English degree and in 1994 that was like I could have got basket weaving; I should have done gender studies like this was like the worst possible degree I could have got for generating in any income. In 1994, 95, I get just was stupid, I was lazy is what it was. And I had fucked up and I was like, shit, I need to do a major in. I don't know what I'm gonna do and I just picked whatever was easy, that's the truth. I go to San Francisco, which was like the most expensive city in America at the time, and I was just decimated because I took this massive risk. My parents aren't wealthy, they're blue collar. I move way the fuck away. So, I have no support network. I'm not really that good with people yet, so I'm like out in San Francisco alone, super expensive, all I can get are minimum wage jobs. I have to have three minimum wage jobs just to exist and that's like Ghetto like existence. I mean, it was like I was poor, poor for years. And this is where I had actually another one of those like paintbrush moments where it was like, dude, you need to get your shit together.
Michael: I'm gonna ask you a question first, a second. Do you think that you were working those minimum wage jobs because you believed that's all you were capable of getting?
Jake: I just didn't have skills. I just was a total clueless human being about how the world worked. You know, and this is before the internet, this is the weird thing about being old enough to have grown up before the internet, but still be in my twenties when the internet really started coming on strong. Being able to get information was so much easier after the internet. I had no idea what to do, how to connect with people. If you weren't connected, it was like impossible. So, I mean, I'd like to say some of that was mindset, but it was more information asymmetry. I just didn't have data to work off that was good data so you just had to take a lot of risk and that's what I did. And I remember I was out there; I was working three jobs. I had a job and they were all minimum wage. I was only working in a video store cause I was obsessed with Quentin Tarantino at the time, and that's what he did. I thought, okay, yeah, I'll be a famous movie director. Go work in a video store which was a mistake, right?
Michael: I think you have to go to film school too.
Jake: Oh my God, it was ridiculous. Then I was working in a bookstore and I was a teller in a bank and then I was also an usher at a movie theater. So, I had four jobs and literally, I was eating ramen and eggs like every meal, it was gross, dude, it just was like not a way to live like for years it was not good, but I was satisfied, I was like living my little adventurous life for me, skateboarding everywhere in San Francisco it was fun, whatever, right? Had no responsibilities.
I remember one day I was at lunch and I was at this bookstore, and across the way was this Chinese food place. And this Chinese food place was my one treats I could give myself and it was a $2 lunch special. Okay. But that was like my splurge, that was my like, oh yeah, I'm doing good. I give it a set, right? So, one day I go and I had a half hour for lunch in the stockroom. I open up the Chinese food and I'm literally wolfing it down and I get halfway through and I look down and it's literally full of like cockroach parts. And I'm like sitting there and this is the moment and I just was like, I'm really hungry and I just picked out the cockroach parts finished it and then I was so disgusted with how I was living and what I was putting up with. I was like, this has gotta change, I cannot be poor anymore, dude, this is stupid.
Michael: And poor is stupid. I agree.
Jake: It was bad. It was just dumb. And it was a choice at this point then. At that point for me, I felt I was old enough, I had enough awareness, I was like, I need to change what the fuck I'm doing here. I need to like spend my time on other stuff and money is actually important.
Michael: Did you believe up to that point money wasn't important because like for me, growing up, being dirt poor, being homeless as a kid, money was always this thing where it was like, pray to God, you have it, just pray you can cover the bills, be satisfied that you have what you have. And that played out for me for a couple of years luckily, because I was obsessed with money. At 20, I made my first a hundred thousand dollars, which is almost insane. Dude, I literally pulled up my W two, two weeks ago from when I was 20 years old because I was like, am I making this up? And so, I kind of lied a little bit ‘cuz I cleared $95,600. So, at that point it was like, money was everything to me cuz all I had experienced was never having it. And so, I think that's a fucking mindset shift like people have to have. So that's a massive rock bottom dude, I would've went hungry.
Jake: It was gross, dude. I mean, it was another one of those man in the mirror moments and it's like what you said, like, you know, when I grew up my parents were very blue collar and I was very much like a latchkey kid where I just was home alone and I'm an only child. I mean, I had a very lonely childhood existence and then a lot of illness too, where I couldn't even go to school. So, I spent so much time alone that was like just my normal and as long as I just had some stuff to draw with and maybe a Nintendo, I was cool like I just was like conditioned that way as a child and that carried on all the way until I was probably about 25, I was okay with that until this moment, that moment I was working at this bookstore. Now this is before Amazon, so it was, the name of the bookstore was Lez Fair Books. And Lez Fair Books it was the biggest libertarian bookstore and they did direct mail, so you'd get like a catalog in the mail every month and then that's how they made their money, right? So, I ended up hooking up at this bookstore, they were in San Francisco, downtown and I'm working there and I'm in the book stacks cuz I'm in the shipping department. I work my way up pretty quick. I'm managing the shipping department. So, I'm around all these like economics books, like hardcore, like Milton Friedman, FA Hayek, James Buchanan, all these Nobel Orts, Gary Becker, all these high-level thinkers that are economists, but also happen to be a libertarian, so they carry this stock anyway, I breed, I'm constantly just immersed in this. And one day we used to have author signings come in all the time, and one day this guy comes in, his name's Joe Fig, he's passed away, rest of peace, huge mentor mine, changed my life. Came in and he lived in San Francisco and he was the Dean of the Economic school at Golden Gate University, which is the oldest private school in California and it's a business-oriented school. And he and I just sit down to start bullshitting and he is like, dude, you should be in grad school for economics. And I'm like, dude, I have a bachelor's in English, dude. No. He's like, no, you need to do it. And he convinced me to do it. And I went and I studied the GRE, studied, did good enough, got into grad school for a completely different subject than my undergraduate. And then when I got in it, I'm like, this is it, dude, this isn't hard enough. I want the hardest subject. And I then switched majors into something called financial engineering, which is basically financial mathematics with the computer programming I'd never programmed, ever. And I did it in 2002, it took me a couple years cuz I had to finance it myself, I had to work at the same time, I got in I think in 98 and graduated 2002. But that was because I decided money was important and then I got crazy obsessed about money and I decided to study money the hardest I could like to get into the deepest, nastiest, hardest, most difficult guts of it that I could and now it's financial engineering.
Michael: What do you think is the greatest misnomer about money that kind of changed the way that you think, operate, understand, use, experience money in your life? Because so many people, and I was guilty of this for a very long time, thinking of like, I just, money it's everything but I'd be like, it's also not important and that's like the greatest lie I used to tell myself ‘cuz it is important and it does matter.
Jake: Yeah. I think there's that attitude that just kind of permeates our culture, either it's that where it's not important, other things are more important and how dare you put money above these other things that is definitely prevalent in the culture and also just this idea that it's flat out bad which is even worse to me. And I was actually, if this is like kind of the common one and then there's the bad, I was actually halfway between both of those for a long time and I was poor and I was suffering and ended up eating cockroach parts, man like it was not good. Right.
Michael: I don't mean to laugh, but I get it.
Jake: No, it's truth. That is sucked. It's stupid. But that's how you learn in my opinion. Right? So, I end up going to this grad school now during this whole time, I am still like a master of samurai going to all these different jiujitsu grappling schools and trying to figure my way out now, partially because I think of the trauma of the self-esteem issues, I had with women growing up. And nothing against strippers like you're all doing some wonderful, but it's a difficult job to have a relationship with somebody in that kind of.
Michael: Dude, I did the same thing when I was 19 years old and I was in misery.
Jake: But I was dating this girl and she was absolutely, okay. So, I never really liked pro wrestling growing up. I just never got into it. I went to a couple shows and it was cool. I think I saw Ricky the Dragon, Steamboat, Rick Flair, they all came to Denver Coliseum like my dad took me into a couple but I never got into it cuz it just was like, dude is, I just never bought into it, it was real. I was just like this, what is this? I'm not into this, but she was into it. And this was right when like SmackDown started coming out, right? And it was like the rock and Triple H and stone-Cold Steve Austin and it was like this new edge, this new branding this attitude era, right? And she was just all about it.
Michael: She just got real nerdy.
Jake: No dude, it's super nerdy. So, she's all into this and I'm like, oh my God. And then to impress her, because I was not connected this is still the early days of the internet, very early days of MMA and grappling in the United States like considering where it is now, I just wasn't connected and I wasn't getting bookings, nothing was happening with my passion, with my dream of being a grappler, right, it just wasn't really going. And this girl, cuz I was so into her, kind of opened my mind a little bit and I'm also a comedy nerd, right? And so, one of my biggest heroes is Andy Coffin well, before the movies came out or anything like this is from when I worked at the video store and he had a couple fucking hilarious videos once called, I'm From Hollywood and it's his own documentary about his journey in pro wrestling and it was so fucking brilliant and so hilarious because he just got everybody so riled up, I was like, this is genius. This is genius from a comedic standpoint.
Michael: He's the greatest villa in the history of wrestling.
Jake: Oh God, dude, he was so good. So, this combination of me, like nerding outward over the comedy genius of Andy Kaufman and then trying to impress this stripper chick, I was like, okay, I'm gonna try this pro wrestling thing. So, I got juiced up, I got up till like 225, naturally probably around 195, 190 but I'm lanky, I don't carry weight naturally. So, I got juiced up, started going to this pro wrestling school and I actually had modest success with it. I got picked up by the Van's Warp Tour, toured with them when they had a pro wrestling group, so I spent the summer with the Van's Warp Tour in 2001. I gotten trained by a guy in Mexico City, a very famous Japanese pro wrestler named Ultimo Dragon went into a week on training camp in Mexico at his dojo down in Mexico on the outskirts in Mexico City. And then I ended up hooking up with this group in Hayward, California that was like a satellite group of pro wrestling Noah. Pro wrestling Noah is a Japanese professional wrestling organization, probably top three depending on the year and they were like the satellite school. Well, I end up, while I was in San Francisco, Hayward's very close, I was like, I'm gonna go train with these guys and it blew my mind. And I wasn't aware that in Japan, pro wrestling is way different than it is in the United States, In the United States, it's cartoonish, you know, there's no other way to describe it, it's a comic book, it's not real and it doesn't even pretend to be real.
Michael: You're just pissed off all the wrestling fans.
Jake: Okay, listen they're smart at this point.
Michael: They know what's happening and context huge wrestling fan as a kid. Loved it.
Jake: Well, see, I think this is where I came to obsess. I started to realize, like so many of these people in grappling came from being pro wrestling professional WWE e fans as kids.
Michael: Yeah, that's how I got into wrestling as a kid. I was like, look at all these scantily clad girls. I have no confidence, maybe if I wrestle, girls will like me. Jake, one time I went, I'd won the city wrestling tournament which was a pretty big deal. And I walk up, I'll never forget this till the day die, there's this girl I have a huge fucking crush on, dude, huge. I walk up, I sit next to her, I just open up the metal case, and I'm like, look what I won. And she was like, go fuck yourself.
Jake: She didn't care, so that's a bitch, that sucks, dude because you're like, your whole thing is like girls.
Michael: Dude, but you know what, I appreciated that moment so much because it made me realize like, no one will ever value me for the things I own.
Jake: Well, I think this is an interesting lesson, it's funny, I ended up through the pro wrestling thing that what you're saying about your medal. I did the same thing I started seeking out the best. So, I saw how these Japanese guys were training and I was like, oh my god, dude, they were actually really wrestling in practice and then the show, it was predetermined, but everything else was wrestling up until the predetermined end. And I was like, this is like actually kind of cool because there's real fighting going on, this is fun, man. And so, at that same time, there was this guy came up named Sahaba in UFC and he was basically like, it was mind-blowing what he accomplished, he mowed down every single Gracie Jujitsu guy that he faced.
Now at that time, that's like somebody being a flat earther, like people what, like a pro wrestler it's like just mowed down the entire Gracie family, it’s just people there's so much cognitive dissonance. Well, I was like in pro wrestling in this Japanese dojo, not really into the buffoonish wrestling, but I was getting money and getting some fame from it. And then this guy comes, I was just like, oh my God, what is this guy doing? This is the next epiphany. Right? So, it's me further sharpening the saw. Right. I started out martial arts, then it turned to grappling. Then it was pro wrestling, but now it's this form of pro wrestling that's competitive. Now I'm really figuring this out. I hook up with a couple huge mentors; Billy Robinson was probably the most impactful of my life, very famous pro wrestler who was feared as a submission grappler. Okay. But this was during like the seventies and eighties. He's the one, he trained Rick Flair, he trained all these guys and they all feared him cuz he just was like legit. He's the one who trained this soccer guy so I sought him out, ended up hooking it up and working out a situation where I could basically apprentice under him for seven years, it was like awesome Tonny changed my life. But he had a very similar thing. He said, you know what, I was winning all of these medals as an amateur wrestler and I went to my coach, his coach was name was Billy Riley. He goes, I went to my coach and I showed him my medal and he goes, all right, that's awesome now buy me a steak dinner. And Billy was like, coach, I can't. He goes, that's why those medals are worthless. And that shifted his whole mindset about, fuck, I love this, but I need to make a living I need and not just make a living, but become wealthy doing this. And Billy was able to, I mean, at one point he told me he was making, like, this is in the seventies, he was making like $10,000 a week. Right.
Michael: That's like a hundred grand a week back then.
Jake: Dude, he was balling, he was at the top right. And he was actually in a movie with Ed Asner like he was the kind of the rock before the rock. Right. He was the main character with Ed Asner and this other guy named Veria in this movie called The Wrestler in the seventies, it's actually a great film. Anyway, so all this stuff, like just kind of because of my obsession and my focus and this desire to do bigger and do more and not be afraid to do stuff that hadn't been done before, it just all started like congealing and becoming this thing that I do today eith this company, scientific Wrestling, which is where I spend most of my time and it's a wrestling business. Right.
Michael: What I want people to hear that I'm hearing, and I don't know if people are making meaning of it, but a couple of things. One, the willingness for you to bet on yourself. Two, getting good mentors, which you probably had to invest in to. And three, which I think we're stepping into right now is that people really underestimate the amount of time that it takes to create something.
Jake: Dude like, so that single minded focus is super important because you will get distracted on other stuff. You're still gonna have 24 hours in a day, but what are you gonna do with that 24? Are you gonna spend it on Netflix, Xbox, PornHub, all this bullshit? Or are you gonna spend all that time working on this thing that actually matters to you and can really radically change your life? But you have to be willing to be different. You have to be willing to stand out. Right? What do they say? The tallest poppy is the one that always gets lopped off, right? In a field of poppies? Well, you gotta take that risk. So, for me, as I've broken it down, it's like you gotta have that get real men in the mirror, rock bottom moment, you gotta get obsessed or single-minded focus. Then you gotta take a calculated risk. Okay? Then you have to, what you're saying, fucking work your ass off, dude. Massive action is the big the terminology and the personal work, your fucking ass off like. And to me, this is also where I think wrestling is fantastic. I think it's the greatest personal develop program ever made because it's just you. I can't blame my soccer teammate. I can't blame my rugby teammate. I fuck up, it's on me, dude.
Michael: That is the exact reason why I wrestled, because I remember being my best friend who unfortunately got murdered, he and I joined the wrestling team together. And I just out shown him, I've got a little bit of athletic capacity as a kid.
Jake: Yeah. You're big and strolling.
Michael: Yeah. And I was in this place as a kid where I just did not trust people. Right. And so, because of my lack of trust, I fucking hated team sports. I played baseball, I played football and I would hate when these kids wouldn't work hard enough. It would drive me fucking crazy.
Jake: It's the greatest way for a young person because it's individual. I think boxing might be a similar thing too.
Michael: Yeah, boxing's right there too for sure. I mean, any individual martial arts I think is gonna put you there, right? Yo-yo, maybe. I don't know. I've never, yo-yo.
Jake: But it's different too, because like, I don't think it's the same as like track and field which is like me just running as fast as I can, dude. When you have another person trying to kick your ass, trying to destroy you, like, it's a different level of the game, dude.
Michael: Yeah. And I think the thing to take away from it more is cuz the vast majority of people have not wrestled Jake; I think we both know this. But I do wanna say that the thing I want people to hold onto in this is like life whether or not you fucking, like it is an individual sport. What you do has nothing to do with me, as much as I wish I could blame Jake for how bad my life sucks, how much I can't get the thing I want, no matter what, it's like, go and take inventory of your fucking calendar. Go look at the way you spend your time, your money, your effort, your energy, right? And look at the way that you present yourself into the world as the person that you are and have a willingness to look in that mirror, man, because that was the pivotal changing point for me too. And look, I don't wanna be fucking preachy cuz people have heard this before, but it's like, listen to this show, pay attention to people's stories like yours, Jake, because we all have something in common. We all had to get the fuck out of our own way.
Jake: A hundred percent, dude. But so, here's the other angle to that though, right? The thing that took me a while to earn as well. So, I do think wrestling is probably for me is, and grappling and martial arts, the greatest personal development tool that I ever really got involved with in the first place, right?
So, this is what I call the five pillars of greatness. I don't know, I'm listening too much to this personal development shit, so I'm coming up with my own. So, the first is like that get real that rock bottom, that man in the mirror moment. The second is getting obsessed. The third is taking calculated risks, right? Which I think hopefully we've talked about all these. The next one is that massive fucking action. And the thing that I was missing out the most that I have recently come to, and maybe it's as I approach 50 in my testosterone decreases, or I don't know what the hell or, because I got so many damn injuries, I can't really do what I used to do, but people is the fifth pillar and I had ignored it for a long time because I wanted to do everything myself, because exactly what you said, people let me down all the time, nobody worked as hard as me. Didn't do it the way I did it to my standards. And I did a lot of great stuff with those first four pillars. I did a lot of fucking cool stuff like I said, I started the mace, the whole fitness mace movement, which still blows my mind to the stand. I'm like, I still have to be like, oh, that was me shit.
Michael: Dude, I saw some video on YouTube, or I might have been TikTok a reel, whatever these things are the other day and I meant to send it to you and I was like, in passing and it had like 500,000 views and it was, or maybe you posted it, it was a girl with a mace just like doing this mace work. I was like, I know the guy who made that.
Jake: Yeah. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? Like, I'm like, I still am like wow. So, I was having massive impact, but I mean, I want like really massive. I want legacy, dude. I wanna die and have my like immortality. I don't want physical immortality. I want my shit to live on for like generations. Right? Like that's what I want, that's crazy.
Michael: But your shit is impact.
Jake: Yeah dude. So, that's gonna take people and that is that fifth pillar is you have to really learn to be a leader. And here's the irony. So going back on my story to when I was in college and I ended up going to college. So, when I got sick, I think I was a sophomore, it was between sophomore and junior year. I got sick and I just was like, fuck, I can't be physical right now. So, I doubled down on academics and I did great. Okay. Because I didn't have anything else to do, right? I ended up going to the University of Colorado on a scholarship, first person in my family to go to college, first person to get a scholarship like awesome, okay. I go on a prestigious leadership scholarship, right? I think it's like 50 out of the 10,000 incoming freshmen get chosen to be in this program. And I'm in this leadership program and I'm a loser dude. I'm like doing drugs. I'm like, pick the easy way out and I get in this leadership, and here my buddy, who's just this scrappy little skateboarding kid is getting mobilizing all these people to build skate parks and do all this stuff. Right. And that was the real lesson for me. Is if I wanna have big impact, like Thrasher level impact, right? Jake Phelps, the guy who ran it, who my friend took over from like that guy blew that shit up, it's live past his life, right? Like that's where I'm wanting to go with scientific wrestling and all this crazy shit that I do.
So, I think I might have done that with the mace, but the mace was just kind of a side project that was like luck in a way. I mean I did it and it was designed, but also it wasn't my intention. I was aiming over here and I hit over here, right? So, I'm like, okay, I need to do this with the wrestling thing and that's gonna take people. So, that is where the leadership component comes in. I do think that you have, I've started now in the last probably five or six years really taking that serious, like how do I get people to actually get into what I'm doing and how do I create a mutually a positive sum game? What Grant Cardone calls the Winners Exchange? Okay, that's awesome. But it's just a simple idea of win-win. How do I align people's interests with my interest? Like with what I wanna do? So that's really where I've gone in the business of this.
To me business is an ethical system, it's a moral system, right? Because I look at like human interaction. I like your unbroken shirt and I can either trick you or and steal it from you somehow, or coconut on the head and take it. Or I can give you 20 bucks and if the shirt is worth less than the 20 bucks, I have you give it me your shirt's worth more than the 20 bucks and we're both a win-win, we're both happy for the exchange, that is where I've been spending the last five or six years, almost entirely in business. So outside of the wrestling; the wrestling's, like my obsession, the wrestling is what has educated me, what has fulfilled me and is my life purpose. But just like I said, I'm aiming for that and I hid elsewhere like I've started all these other companies and like I started the first reverse mortgage consultancy. I sold my shares out cuz I was like, well I need to buy a house, so I'm gonna just buy this house, I don't even wanna do the work. But these guys, that company now is like a, I think they pull something like he was telling me it's like eight or 9 million dollars a year. Right. And that was totally just me having one of those moments and this guy was my boss and he kept bugging me every day. He was like, dude, I need market share numbers and these are all privately held companies, I'm like, dude, unless you gimme like a corporate espionage budget, I can't get, these are not in 10Ks. I can't go fucking look this up. And he was just kept bugging me about it. And one day I was like, we had a weekly Friday meeting, and on that, I remember this Friday, I came in and I go, I solved the problem. I got the problem solved and he's like, what? I go, yeah. And he's like, whoa, okay. What do we gotta do? Okay. I said, well, I need to quit, you need to quit and we need to take this database guy with us. He's like, what, dude? I'm like, no, just hear me out. What we're gonna do is we're gonna quit and then we're gonna get NDAs for everybody in the business to give us their data, and we're gonna spit back reports with only their data as a slice of the pie, everybody else grayed out, but you know, company A has got this market share, company B's got this and you're here. And he was like, all right, let's go, that was 2006. That was the last day I worked, by the way, for somebody else.
Michael: So what everyone needs to know is that Jake actually destroyed the American economy.
Jake: Dude. So, I was working for Indie Mac Bank as a quant. My title was Manager of Technical Oversight of Complex Instruments. What a fucking stupid title that is. Right? Like what bullshit is that? They hired me to basically overlook the portfolio and look at risks. And I was answering to C level executives, right? Like Chief Revenue Officer and shit, we were in the analytics department. And I'm asking these questions like, cuz it was Indie Mac, this was the first bank to get nationalized during the 2008 crisis. Right? They were fucked. And I was like, guys got, you know, in board meetings. I'm like, how are we going to, this is not sustainable. We're doing these liar loans, no dock loans and giving a plumber a million-dollar loan. I can't cover that dude. If there's a hiccup in the economy, you can't cover that. And what about the fact that the GSEs, like Freddy and Fanny are actually bankrupt right now like this is a whole pro. So, I had people on my LinkedIn being like, dude, you were totally right, like I was some sort of profit or shit, like people that I worked with back then. But what that actually did is marginalized me cuz I was fucking with the C level executives KPIs, which are tied to their bonuses, they don't want that cuz they're only there for like three or four years and then they get these like million-dollar bonuses and then they're out, they go buy a house or something, right? But I'm like, guys, we can't do this. And I told, so I actually saw the writing on the wall and that's why I left Indie Mac and moved to their subsidiary, which was at the time the largest reverse mortgage originator named Financial Freedom. And that's where I started working on where I met this guy and I was just like, dude, I'm just waiting for the fucking foot to drop or the other foot to drop. I'm like, this is not sustainable like this is gonna go in the shitter dude. And I mean, I don't know. I convinced him somehow so, we all left.
Michael: You've lived a lot of different lives.
Jake: I've packed a lot of life in.
Michael: Yeah. You know, I think that I have too, I look at my experience and I want to pivot here and I know we're running out of time, but you know, you and I connected and I want to go into this with a couple minutes left cuz I think it's really, really important. For those not watching you have a 10X hat on and you and I connected because you held this 10X event. And as everyone knows, if you've listened to this show, Grant Cardone became a business investor and my company, I spoke on his stage, blah, blah, blah. And moving to Denver recently, I was like, man, I need to find community, to your point, the fifth pillar, people and alignment. And I think I want to add to your people and add the word alignment because I think it’s so important because fucking people are everywhere. But the honestly, you need to be the moving in the right crowd or leading the right crowd and like, you know, we meet on from meetup.com and this is the same thing I tell people all the time, like, don't make excuses for not having a community cuz you have the fucking internet. And so, I was like, okay, cool, I'm gonna hop on here now what's on meetup.com. Oh entrepreneur, fucking party, drink, poll party, go to the club, bowling, I'm like, no I'm not 25 anymore. I want to be around people who are creating change in their world and in life. And then I was like, oh wait, this guy, Jake has this thing called the 10X meetup. Perfect. My people. My community, ‘cuz these are people who we have some sort of alignment in symbiosis. What role has being able to step into this ideation of 10X and this community and even Grant Cardone mean for you and your life and your future?
Jake: Yeah, man. So again, I think you're right about that because you're right, alignment is so important about it. And it's just trying to find, to get the other person to benefit from your thing, it's that winner's exchange that positive something, right? That took me forever. So, there is a period, like I mentioned, my wife and I are having our 16th wedding anniversary tomorrow. We're also business partners, right? So, she has a software company and she calls me her lover and consultant. I love it, right? Because I've helped her like we we're Toy HR hates us, man. Like I'm toy Copin fields all the time, it's like toy off. So, we got married and started running this company and I'm gonna be honest, like I think we got kind of complacent, we weren't hanging around with the right people, you know what I mean? And that sounds judgey, but it is judgey, dude, because I want something for my life and certain people are gonna change it. If I hang out with a bunch of meth heads, man, I'm gonna be living breaking bad. I'm not gonna be living the life I want. Right? Unless I wanna live breaking bad which, I mean, you got a whole bunch of fucked up priorities if that's your goal. But we had gotten a little complacent and we were kind of, actually, this is before lockdowns and we got hammered by lockdowns. But we got complacent and we were kind of actually thinking of selling the company and I'd never really sold, I'd sold out of a company I'd been in, but I'd never actually sold a company. So, I started looking into like, how do we sell the company? I've worked in investment banking but never actually done this process I wanna learn it. And it might have been the algorithm. I don't know ‘cuz Grant's like fucking got a genius marketing team. I'm looking, reading everything, listen on Audible, everything about how to exit a business and this event comes up, it's called 10X Exit. And I'm like, dude, honey, we gotta go to this. We gotta go to this cuz I need to learn from this guy. This guy Brandon Dawson, who's runs Cardone Ventures and that's Grant's partner in that company.
Michael: Who's arguably the smartest businessman I've ever met.
Jake: Dude. So like I was telling you, the thing I learned from Tony Robbins early on was get to the very fucking best people do whatever it takes to get in that room. For wrestling, it wasn't money that did it for me and wrestling to have me team up with guys like Carl Gotch or Billy Robinson people know it was effort and making things happen, that's what they wanted. But business guys want probably money, right? So anyway, we go to this thing with Dawson who's totally impressive, you gotta just look him up, man. Like had a $2 million a year company, sold it for 70 times earnings, you know, like 77 times earnings for 150 million. I mean, I was like, dude, I'm gonna sit at the feet at this guy and figure this shit out. Well, we go to 10X exit and I had already been super impressed with Grant off of Undercover Billionaire. The thing he didn't, Pueblo I was like, fuck dude, that guys like legit. And I'd already been reading him and stuff, but I hadn't really gotten pulled in. We went to that 10X exit and it was a real eye-opener for me because I had been able to grow a company up to about 1.5 million, but I couldn't do beyond that. I didn't know I'd never gone beyond that, but these guys had, and I was like, shit, these are the people, man. And, it's expensive, but dude, it's better money than I spent even on my master's degree in financial engineering, that was $60,000. I've spent way more at Grant, but that money like, whereas the financial engineering degree, yeah, I mean I got a couple high salary jobs out of it, but like, stuff that I was learning out of the 10X community and to be surrounded by like-minded people. Fuck dude. Totally. I mean, so, I mean, I'm one of those people that can make a decision quickly. And I saw this, I was like, this is exactly what we need, where we need to be, the people we need to be around and just, I mean, a hundred percent commitment, like all the chips in on this. And so, yeah, it's radically changed our lives for the better, really helped her company. You could talk to Sondra about probably some of the impact that it's had for her, which I think has been massive with regard to a company, but also kind of in terms of personal achievement and things like that it's a great group. Great group of people.
Michael: Yeah. And again, it's that alignment issue, right? It's like that is more important ‘cuz you know, the other day I've shared this before, but I was on Facebook and an old friend had messaged me, someone I have not seen this dude in 15 years, but dude, you know, what we used to do 15 years ago, party, drink, watch football all day long. And I'm just, you know, I had the back and forth though. I got no beef or anything and we're having the back and forth and I'm like, oh wait, you're literally still doing the same shit. Nothing is different. And getting involved in communities of people who want growth, who want endeavor, who want success, it's everything. Jake, my friend, this conversation's been incredible, before I ask you my last question, where can everybody find you?
Jake: Probably the easiest way is my passion anything scientific wrestling, you can go scientificwrestling.com. Google it. You can Facebook it, Instagram it, TikTok it, all of that. I mean, I try to be everywhere ubiquitous with it scientific wrestling is probably the easiest way and then just message me. If you are interested in some of the coaching I offer, I've got my own kind of brand I'm kicking off again, totally Grant inspired also a little inspired by Think Unbroken as well. Number one is kind of what I'm pushing like No1 because I'm really into this journey of bootstrap entrepreneurship, of being a No1 to number one No1 Right? So, you can find me at no1coaching.com as well, so scientific is probably the easiest.
Michael: Amazing. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?
Jake: Okay. I had to look something up on the phone because I don't know if it's from the strokes, I've had due to wrestling or maybe the drug use or maybe just getting old things don't pop into my head as easy as they used to.
But I've spent a little bit of time around Japanese culture and there's this really interesting art form, it's called “KintSugi.” And it's this art form of taking like broken plates and bases and putting 'em back together and then sealing them with like this gold seal. And it's this actual like art and it's kind of like a Japanese art of unbroken. And so, I think that, you're only broken if you decide to stay broken. You could actually make a choice to unbreak that thing and put it together and actually make it into something more valuable at work of art like KintSugi. To me, and this is hard, I think, for people to hear, especially when you're in the midst of the muck and the shit, that being unbroken is a choice, and you just gotta have that. For me, it's just constantly being disgusted with myself like that's how I get out of it but it's a choice.
Michael: I relate to that a lot. Jake, my friend, thank you so much for being here.
Unbroken Nation. Thank you so much for listening.
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Jake Shannon is one of the pioneers for Catch Wrestling in the USA, his scientific approach to wrestling and martial arts is unprecedented and highly valuable to the martial arts community. Jake received his coaching certification under the famous Billy Robinson, and has been coaching catch as you can wrestlers all the way to high level professional athletes, including; grapplers, mixed martial artists and competitive wrestlers.