The Loneliness Epidemic Why Technology Is Making Us More Alone with Gabor Kadas

Michael Unbroken: It would seem hard to disagree that we live in the loneliest time probably ever. We are also connected with our cell phones, our devices, our smart TVs, and soon-to-be our smart pants, but yet we can't seem to connect with each other almost at all in real life. There is a true loneliness epidemic taking place that is impacting people mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, and financially.

And every single day in this country and in the world, we are becoming more afraid of each other in a way that it's very divisive to even be a human being. We have a hard time breaking bread with people who don't see the way that we see. We have an even more difficult time being friends with people who don't see the world the way that we see.

And I'm excited for today's guest, Gabor Kadas. We're going to break down and talk about how we can overcome this loneliness epidemic, how we can be more connected to each other, and most importantly, how we can stop being virtual friends and start being real friends. Aboard, my friend, thank you for being on the show. I'm really excited to dive into this with you today.

Gabor Kadas: Thank you for having me.

Michael Unbroken: Let's start at the beginning of what we're seeing right now. How do you think that we've arrived at this place, that people feel so alone and so isolated?

Gabor Kadas: I think the short answer is technology is misleading us, creating a falsehood of friendship, a false belief.

You and me are sharing a screen now, hundreds of miles away from each other, and that is misguiding people in the belief that they have friends who are on the screen, who are associated with them on various social media. But most of the people, I don't think they actually know the people who they like as friends, or say they are friends, because they never met them in real life.

Michael Unbroken: Here's what I'm thinking about. Because in this moment, I think we all kind of know that. Where did it really go wrong? Is it simply technology? Is there a deeper level to this that we need to understand from a psychological standpoint?

Gabor Kadas: Yes. If you go back in time to the Stone Age, human beings were in groups. They were never alone. They formed various groups in caves, they did hunting together, etc. So from zero time, people needed to be with one another.

And it's only perhaps the last 30 years or so where technology, at its initial glance, perhaps seemed to have replaced the need to be with people. But genetically speaking, we're encoded to meet people in real life, and meeting them virtually on the screen creates an illusion, like a magician's illusion, that we have friends, that we're not alone.

But really what we need is to be with other people, not on the screen, but in real life. And technology in the last 30 years created an environment that forcibly made us believe that we have friends when we don't actually have friends. All we have is somebody on the other side of the screen.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. It's funny, because I feel that impact even myself sometimes. And as a person who has his own company and I work from wherever I happen to be that day, and I have team members who are all over the world, one of the things that I find very difficult is that idea of connection.

And I see that happening more and more, especially as we move towards a remote-working kind of world. I have people who, and this is just because of the nature of how it is, have worked for me for years and I've never had dinner with them. Right. And I think that's just the truth of the reality of how things are.

But even within that, I see so many people make almost no effort to go out into the world and be a part of something. It's almost like we've become afraid of going outside.

Gabor Kadas: Yes. Because you believe you have friends, so you don't need to go outside.

And then when you attempt to go outside, meet people online or whatever, you may not even get as far as meeting them because it turns out that it was false in a profile to start with. And also, because all the news about the world in general is the mistrust that is created between individuals who do not know each other, simply because of general news stories, and people are afraid.

And that's the truth. People are afraid to go out and meet new people because they have no idea who they are meeting. Are they who they are?

So that's the biggest problem. That's why people stay locked up in their little world, using technology to cross that bridge, but that bridge doesn't really lead anywhere.

Michael Unbroken: What do you think people are most afraid of? Because I think about this a lot, right? Because I'm in a martial arts community. I'm in an entrepreneurial community. I'm in all these different things that require me to go and be around other humans.

And I have certainly been in that place where I found myself ostracised and alone and behind the computer all day. And I started doing this thing probably like a year ago, two years ago, where if I'm at a coffee shop, I start saying hello to people around me. When I'm at lunch, I say hello to people around me. When I'm at dinner, especially if I'm by myself or I'm sitting somewhere and there's someone else alone, I invite people to sit with me.

And you know what's crazy? I've only ever had one person tell me no, and I've probably asked a couple hundred people. “Hey, I see you're alone. I'm alone. Do you want to have lunch together?” And out of all that, I've only ever had one person say no.

And I think that I am not particularly afraid of other humans. But what is driving that fear for people? I know you mentioned the media, but is there something deeper there that maybe we need to uncover a little bit here?

Gabor Kadas: I think the general state of the world, all the uncertainty, what goes on in the US or, if you want to expand that, what goes on around the world. The general mistrust. It is just safer to stay in your seat.

No harm can definitely come to me if I'm just talking to somebody through the screen, sending text messages. And you don't really realise that you may not be sending text messages to the person you're thinking you're sending text messages to, because he or she may look totally different and be totally different. The whole thing may be a scam.

But you still, nonetheless, are in a safe environment from your perspective because you're at home. That is why you feel safe. People think they can create this safe environment. They're afraid to leave their comfort zone.

And I am curious. I never learned from you, or probably never was at the same restaurant at the same time as you were. Nobody ever, I often go out by myself and nobody ever told me, “Why don't you join me?” I have to be honest, I didn't ask anybody to join me either. But I'm surprised that people still do that.

And I mean, more surprised that, as you were saying, almost a hundred percent success rate in terms of acceptance. Yet has anybody else ever come up to you, reversing what you're doing? Has anybody asked you to join them for lunch?

Michael Unbroken: No, it's never actually happened. Which is really funny because I do think about that a lot.

And it actually started, the very first time I ever did this was about 10 years ago, and I was in Thailand. I was walking to this restaurant after a monsoon, because it was monsoon season. So I'm on this little island called Copen Gun, and I'm walking to the only restaurant that I can see within walking distance.

And there happened to be another woman sitting in that restaurant at the same time. No one else was in there, because this massive storm had just come through. And I said, “Hey, do you want to have dinner with me?” And she said yes.

And we ended up sitting and chatting for like three hours during this storm. And she had an amazing story. Told me about her husband and her family and her kids and why she was there. And I was telling her about my journey, where we were. And it was just so cool. It was such a great experience.

I felt like in that moment, this is why I did it. Because I felt like it would have been more awkward to have two people sitting separately in a restaurant where there's only two people, versus having dinner and someone potentially saying no.

And so I carried that over into my life over the years. And I think it's tough because people are afraid of rejection, and I think that's kind of the heart of it.

Gabor Kadas: Okay. Let me ask you another question. In your experience, I was assuming the US, but apparently your first experience was outside the US. So if you're still doing it, and you say you are, are you in the US?

Or you generally do it in the US? Because obviously different people have a different culture or response to your question. In Asia, it's obvious that you're not Asian. Perhaps they're more interested in you because you are not Asian.

So my question is, because my original assumption was that this was taking place in the US, let me rephrase it. How many people have you asked in the US to join you for lunch or dinner?

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, tons. Tons.

And I think one of the things that we see, and this person in Thailand, she was German actually. Which, you know, German people have this preconceived notion of being very stoic. But that may be true, I've met many German people over the years. But she was very open and kind and warm.

But in the States, what happens is we are so consumed with our phones, with our laptops, and with all the things happening. Even the other day I was on a walk and I saw everyone was buried in their phone.

And I keep thinking to myself, like this thing. I had this idea the other day. What if, you know how your phone shows you screen time at the end of the week?

Gabor Kadas: Yes.

Michael Unbroken: What if it showed you at the end of the year how much time you had used, and then on your deathbed it showed you how much time you had used? And it's like some people are going to have 12.5 years of their life on social media, which isn't actually social anymore.

And as AI starts to come in, it's going to get even less social.

And so what I'm wondering is, when we're looking at what is happening and the massive number of people increasingly who feel this loneliness, what are they doing? I guess it's weird to say “what are they doing wrong” because it's so social, but what could they be doing differently? What are the things in their life that they should be considering on a daily basis?

Because you mentioned comfort zone and people feeling safe. Does friendship require being uncomfortable and slightly out of, I don't want to say out of safety, because that would be weird, but what does it actually require for you to go out and be a part of the human species these days?

Gabor Kadas: Yes.

Basically, I think it has to do with what you need to do to make friends. It is just that people are used to going out. Even if they go out in a group, they each have their own devices.

So my question is, if you are on your device, why did you bother to go out to the restaurant in the first place if you're not chatting with the individuals that you are with?

So even if you pretend to be in a social environment, meaning outside your home with a group, you're still not. You're still focused on your device.

But I think slowly it is changing. At least here in the US there is a de-plug movement, or an unplugged movement. I don't know if that has reached you or not.

It is slowly changing where you can only enter a bar or go hiking with groups if you leave your device at home. So people are slowly realising that the only way this will change, and make sure that you are within a group, is if you leave your phone at home, or switched off. If you go to a bar and it is locked up.

And if you Google either de-plug or unplug, that's a new kind of trend that is slowly emerging in the States, but it is very early. The only reason I'm aware of it is because I follow these types of events. But it's getting there. People are realising that they're losing part of their humanity in some sense, because humans are supposed to interact with each other, and you're not. You're interacting with a device.

Michael Unbroken: That's new to me. I could see it though.

I think consciously there are certain things where I do not take out my phone when I'm out to dinner or drinks or on a date. And in fact, if I'm on a date and someone takes out their cell phone, I'm just like, “Oh, this is definitely not going in the direction I want it to.”

I think that in business meetings, I don't take out my phone. And podcasts like this moment, it's not a, you know.

And so I think a big part of it is self-control. And I see, obviously these things are built to constantly give you dopamine hits between the notifications, between the colours, the lights, the sounds, the haptic feedbacks. It is an addiction-making machine.

I guess last year I saw this girl, and she was probably like nine or 10, throw this insane temper tantrum when her mum took her iPad away. When we were at a restaurant, and I happened to be in the restaurant also. And my thought was, that's an addict behaviour response. That's not a healthy, normalised, socialised child's response to having an entertainment device taken away from them.

And so let's talk about this unplugging, this de-plugging a little bit. First off, what does it really mean? And obviously I know you're not an expert in it, but it's something you have more knowledge in than I do, and I think it'd be beneficial to those listening.

Where do you begin to unplug? What does that actually look like, and how do you handle the lack of dopamine and that addictive response people are having? If you have any insight to that, I would love to hear your thoughts.

Gabor Kadas: I just read articles. I haven't personally participated in an activity.

Basically, in terms of going to bars or clubs, they literally lock up the devices. I know some schools in Europe, they lock up your device as well so that you don't have access during the school hours to your phone or whatever else. And it's the same kind of mentality.

And going into that, it's nothing strange. It may be strange, but not strange to them because that is why they picked that place, because they know that nobody will have a cell phone with them.

And they're not restricting it to bars or clubs. They are also saying, “Hey, where the activity is hiking or whatever, you need to not have your phone, or have it turned off.”

And I think it's more like the millennials and the younger people who are reversing the trend. Because when they grew up, these phones were already in existence. When I grew up, they were not.

So they are rebelling perhaps, if that's a good word, as teenagers often do, against the way society is handling this phenomenon. And they're saying, “Well, we don't want this. We want to talk to real people.”

Obviously it's a very minority, but as I said, Google the word “de-plug”, that's the official trend name, so to say. And it also got “unplugged”, but it's really “de-plugged”.

It's a good trend, but again, it will take probably at least a decade to manifest itself in any real number. So there are people who realise that they're not living in the real world, and that's what they're trying to do: stop that and go back to the real world, which many people are avoiding.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, I think most people are avoiding it. I even have my moments, trust me.

I just turned 40, and I'm the first generation where it's like we had computers around from the beginning. I was the first group. We had computers in preschool. I'm four years old in preschool.

I'll never forget, we were the first to have computers at home that had an internet connection. We were the first to have cell phones in high school.

And our, my sister who's a little bit older than me, she had a landline phone in high school. It was a family phone. Nobody had their own.

I had one, because I had a job and I was hustling and doing my thing. And I bought a cell phone when I was 18, and I was one of the first people in my group of friends to have a cell phone.

And so it's one of those things where the technology for me and my group, we're the first to have it forever.

And I see the addictions happening and I've had to catch myself. There are a couple of things that I do that have been really effective for me, and I hope I can give some guidance to folks listening here who might be like, “Yeah, I know that this phone and this lack of social connection, which we're going to talk a little bit more about, is a problem.”

One, my phone does not have notifications on. But what I did do is I set up the people in the Do Not Disturb who can get through no matter what. So I have a handful of people that no matter what day or night, they can message me.

My phone is in either night mode or in black and white at all times. Putting it in black and white, I learned from my friend Damon. He taught me this and I was like, “That's crazy. I didn't know that was a thing.” Huge on your dopamine receptors.

Then I try not to watch media on my phone. Like if I actually want to watch something like YouTube, I have it on my phone, I have it on my computer, on my television. And that tends to help a lot.

But also the other part of it is that I've learned that sometimes you have to parent yourself, and you have to limit the amount of time that you're allowing yourself to be on screens.

And I think those are things that might be able to help people, because there is this epidemic of loneliness that's happening because people feel this false narrative of connectedness via these devices. We know that there's no connectedness. Someone holding your hand in real life is not the same as someone being like, “I wish I could hold your hand” in a text message. It's just not.

And so one of the things I think that would be helpful: what are some of the effects that we're seeing on people's mental and physical health by being lonely, by being ostracised, by being addicted to their phones? What are you seeing happening in the world?

Gabor Kadas: Basically 60 or 70 million in the US, people say that they're alone, which to me means nobody's proud of it. So if 60 to 70 million people admit it, it's probably more like 80 million in reality.

Also, a lot of people, I think, got forced into a situation because of COVID. They are working from home. I was always working from home ever since I was a teenager, so it was a choice for me. I mentally got used to it and I'm fine with that.

Some people who always worked in a social environment, even if they just met somebody and spent 10 minutes chatting over coffee, you don't have that. So your work social environment for a lot of people has disappeared.

And as a result, when I was doing some research on this, I thought, yeah, obviously depression, mental effects, all that is easily understood and accepted. But you actually get physical manifestations, from high blood pressure and stuff. To me that was really strange.

Because you go in and work in a bad mood, whether at home or at the work environment. It's costing about $150 billion on the economy because people are not as efficient, whether they are at home or at the work environment, as they could be because of their mental state.

So COVID forced people to be at home. Because they could be at home in terms of technology. If COVID hit 50 years ago, I don't know what the solution would have been, but I don't think the solution would have been “go home” because nobody could do any work 50 years ago from home.

So it's the technology combined with the pandemic that forced people to be able to work from home.

As a result, even though we are, I don't know, three, four years, or two, three years after the pandemic, many companies realise that it is maybe more financially beneficial for them. Smaller office, less coffee consumed, no more snacks. Maybe in some respects more efficient because there are no coworkers to talk to, etc.

So a lot of puzzle elements came together to put us where we are today. It's technology, COVID, and as you said, you're the first generation who was born with that technology.

And I don't think things will get better with AI and all that, because your so-called friend will even be more friendly.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, and I think AI, it's fascinating, right? Because AI, I've been thinking about this a lot recently because we're using five to seven different AI technologies in the business right now.

And here's the thing. We have not gotten rid of anyone on our team. We have a full staff. Everyone has a job. And I've come to realise AI is a tool, but it is not a solution.

And I think one of the things that I'm especially afraid of, and I'll speak to this from the mental health for single people especially, is I think AI is going to disrupt relationships in a way that we don't even understand yet.

Where you talk about if you think loneliness is bad now, in 10 years I think it's going to be even worse. There was a research study that came out recently and we are on pace that by 2035, 60-plus percent of individuals will be single and unmarried over the age of 30, 65%. That's crazy.

And then now you have to go, okay, well what does that mean for suicide? What does that mean for self-harming? What does that mean for addictions? What does that mean for all of these things?

And then the technology is becoming so unbelievably vast where now you can have intimate relationships with robots who are connected to AI and you're like, “Well, do I need a girlfriend? Do I need a boyfriend?”

And then you have AI mapping out your entire life in the day-to-day where it's like, maybe I don't need a team member. Maybe I don't need to go anywhere ever, because delivery happens in three minutes instead of three hours, and there's no reason for me to walk around the corner because I hook myself up to the desk and I just work here all day.

And I think that there's a lot of, I mean, obviously I'm very pro technology. I'm like, “Give me the implant. I'm ready.” I'm one of those kind of people.

But I also am not going to give up going to do martial arts and going to the clubs that I'm a part of and going to the events and dinners that I enjoy.

And I think that we have to encourage people to still be human. And I think that we live in a very tricky time to be a human, I would argue.

And I think that obviously you have some age and some experience on me, and I would love to know your insight, but I would argue even though this is the best time and safest time to be alive ever, murder rate is down, violent crime statistics are down, so on and so forth, it's still, in my opinion, the hardest time ever to be alive.

I don't know. What are your thoughts? You've got a little bit more experience than I do. Obviously we're not in the middle of some catastrophe that's happening worldwide as we have been, but I think the technology has made it almost impossible to be a person.

Gabor Kadas: Exactly, and I would call that the catastrophe that may not manifest itself as a physical thing.

Give you an example. When I was, I don't know, eight, 10 years old, I did something bad, I got grounded, which meant I couldn't use my bike. Today, it's the opposite. You send your kids out to use their bike to be away from their screen.

So what was a punishment in my childhood, “Hey, you did this, that, whatever, you're not going to be able to ride and meet with your friends on the bike,” now that bike usage, or what used to be a punishment, turned out to be a punishment in a different sense: you are punished because you are in front of your screen all day.

I don't know, I have a teenage daughter, and in some respects I'm scared for her, not because of the war type situation, which was 60, 70 years ago in Europe. I am more scared what technology will do to human beings.

Just like nobody realised what a pandemic would do because there was no pandemic for the past a hundred years, give or take, in the world, or prior to that, I am concerned that we have left the genie out of the bottle. And where will that lead?

You talk about virtual AI. Yes. In five, 10 years time, that AI will manifest itself in terms of robots in your home. So you are even more under the perception that you have a friend because somebody is physically in your house. Okay, it's a robot, but it's still better than just a screen person.

So that's the direction. And people don't realise the impact they have on their health, on their physical, on their mental health. We are genetically encoded to meet with real people. We got together in tribal groups, etc.

And the robot will even more replace the real person because with a real person, you may actually argue and you may disagree. With a robot, the robot will never argue with you. It's programmed to agree and support you. So you're going to live in an even more false bubble than you're living today, because you're not going to be able to have a truly different perspective on whatever you happen to be arguing on.

Michael Unbroken: I mean, that's true. Yeah.

It's funny because I've never connected those dots. Now it's funny, the punishment is “go ride your bike.” That's such a crazy thought to have.

And it's interesting too, because just last night I was on a walk, it was like 5:00 PM. I'm on the West Coast right now. The weather's absolutely beautiful, even though it's the spring, and I didn't see a single child in the entire neighbourhood.

And I'm in a neighbourhood with a thousand homes, probably somewhere in that window. It's a very large neighbourhood. That might be a lot more than actual, but that's a large neighbourhood.

I didn't see a single kid, not one kid being outside. And I remember when I was young, we weren't allowed to be in the house. And I have to think that has to socially isolate children as well, because there is something about getting in trouble that I think is necessary for kids. You know what I mean?

Gabor Kadas: Childhood.

It, you know, and you get into trouble. I think this as well, spending too much time on your device, looking at inappropriate content on your device. So it's not that you don't get into trouble, you just get into a different kind of trouble.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, that's very true.

So now we're in this window of time that I think the decisions that we're starting to make on the individual level are vastly important.

Because from a business perspective and from a, and I don't work in the government, but I can make my own assumptions from a government perspective, they want you on your phone, they want you connected to the internet.

They want you disconnected from your freedom of choice and your freedom of thought, and they want you to not be in friend groups and socially isolated and taking 400 prescription drugs and not taking care of yourself. There's something to the business of that, especially in America, and I think more people are waking up to it.

I don't know if you've seen this stat, but recently a stat came out that the average alcohol consumption in America is down like 30%, which is unbelievable.

I mean, you talk about disrupting an industry, because this is the positive side of the technology: we get data, we get knowledge, we get information.

People used to think it was okay to smoke cigarettes when you're pregnant. And now if you saw a pregnant person smoking a cigarette, you'd be like, “You're the dumbest person I've ever seen in my life.” Right?

And so that's how people will look at cell phones. In 30 years, we'll go, “Man, those people were so dumb. Look at them, staring at this little box all day long while they're missing out on opportunities for friendships and connection.”

So with us being in that space and us recognising now's the time for us to take control, where do we begin? What are the things that we actually need to start doing to move into this place of actually connecting with other humans?

Gabor Kadas: Most importantly, I think, leave your home. Get out. If that's your comfort zone, get out of your comfort zone.

As you said, you haven't seen anybody around you riding a bike, basically because they're all sitting at home watching their screen.

And nobody's going to help you unless you're willing to help yourself. You can only accept or expect help if you're willing to help yourself as well.

So you need to take the first step, which is doing activities that you enjoy, that's in your neighbourhood, that is outside of your home perhaps.

If you're always interested in doing something, this is a good time to see how good of a fit that activity is.

If you continue to sit at home in front of your screen, your life will not change, not for the better. It probably will change for the worse because you'll get various physical and mental illnesses.

So figure out what you want to do. Figure out what you enjoy, or what you want to try out, and find people in your neighbourhood who enjoy the same activities.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. Now here's what's interesting, because there's an irony in that, right?

Because in today's society, there's no community bulletin board up on a wall somewhere. Like you have to get on your phone and go and find the things, right?

So it's funny because the irony is that.

And I know there's a lot of sites in the world where people can connect and find a way to parlay, but I know that you're also working on something really special, which is a big part of why I wanted to have you on as well.

And I'd love for you to talk about what it is that you're building right now and the way that you're helping people become more connected in the real world.

Gabor Kadas: Yes, it's some kind of ironic path that what we're using technology for is to download our app called Friending, but that's when the technology part ends.

In that respect, Friending is designed to meet people outside of your home, in your neighbourhood.

The problem with other friending or dating apps is that they are forcing you to send messages back and forth and really keeping you online.

In Friending, you can only send a maximum of 10 messages between the two people, and after that, one of you has to send a friend request.

And that friend request means that you're meeting somebody in real person, probably at the coffee shop or somewhere else.

But the only way you are becoming friends with the other person is if your phones are next to each other. So you need to meet, physically meet, in the world, traditional sense of the world, and that is the key.

We are hoping to use technology so you get connected, but then we are hoping that you will get off the technology in some sense and find activities together that are not related to technology. And that is the crucial difference.

And because you're meeting in person, we also verify each individual using a third-party app called Persona. Getting back to the earlier part of the conversation, we're trying to make this as safe and as comfortable as possible.

And should you meet in a coffee shop and still feel uncomfortable, there are safety features built in, like tapping the screen three times. If your app is open, that will either call the police, call a friend, or just alert anybody with the app in the neighbourhood.

So we're trying to make it safe because we verify people. And even though you may feel uncomfortable, there's still a way to find help if you are uncomfortable at the time you meet for the first time.

But the crucial thing is meeting in person. That's what matters.

And because we verify people, there are no fake profiles, there are no bots, because you are verified with your driver's license, with your ID. So there's no two ways about it. This is how you look.

You're not an 18-year-old blonde. You may not even be blonde and not 18 at all, and exchanging messages or chats, and then you ghost the person after you've already created an emotional bond between you and that other person who suddenly decided to ghost you.

So there's a lot of implications about fake profiles. Even though you never end up meeting, of course, because that's the whole point of the fake profile, the person has still built an emotional bond, some kind of mental picture of how you look.

And that's what we're avoiding by making sure that you look the way that you say you do because you're verified with your driver's license.

So I think that's why Friending is different from all other dating apps, because all other apps, and I don't want to name any, they constantly say, “Hey, everybody, move aside and only come back once you've been verified.”

So because we are building this app from the ground up, we have very few users and you can only become users once you've been verified.

And the 1.0 version will launch in March.

Michael Unbroken: That to me is very exciting because I think one of the big mistakes people make is they try to force people to meet them at the thing that they want to create instead of meeting people at the way that they use technology.

Right. And I mean, I am an app-based human. My team and I, we use all the apps you could ever imagine to form and function and flow of the day-to-day.

For my own personal life, for my health, everything runs that way.

And I love the idea when I'm out at the coffee shop sometimes and you see a flyer on the wall and you're like, “That's cool,” but people don't operate that way anymore. They need a hub, a place where they can go and actually build and find the connections.

And I think that can be really scary for people too.

And that's why I love that you have a verification process there, because that's why I don't do dating apps. I've been on them before, and all the time I'm just like, “This is such a horrible waste of time because you don't know if somebody's actually the person that they say that they are.”

And I remember once, this is when I decided I was going to quit. It was a year ago or so. I matched with someone, we're chatting, and I'm not a hard person to discover who I am and what I do.

This podcast has been around 10 years. I've got books. I'm all over the place speaking on the road.

Turns out this person who I matched with actually knew who I was before, because of what I do as a career. And that's fine, that's going to happen, not a big deal.

But we got to the point where I was like, “Hey, why don't we go grab a coffee and have a chat, meet up?” And I noticed that their profile was not verified on this app.

And I said, “Hey, I can't meet you unless you verify yourself.” Because just like anyone who's trying to find a friend, especially in dating, I want to know that you are who you say you are.

If I meet you in real life, that's a little bit different, right? If I meet you in this app, okay, I want to have confirmation.

And I said this to them. I said, “Hey, I'd love to meet you, but you need to verify. I just need to know you are who you say you are.”

Because look, I've had a stalker before and that is a real thing and it is not a fun experience, and I do not want to walk down that path again.

A couple messages back and forth. They delete their profile and block me.

And I was like, “Oh, that's really interesting.” Because my guess is they probably aren't who they were pretending to be. And that ruined dating apps forever. I'm done. I just don't want to deal with this anymore.

But with what you're doing and the way that you've set this up, I think verifying people first is brilliant. I think it's a requirement. I think all of these apps should have that requirement.

If we have to walk through freaking TSA and our face gets scanned 700 times before we get on an airplane and we think that's the height of security, how do we not bring that into the technology of connecting with other humans?

So first, I love that.

Secondly, what are people doing when they're meeting? What's the ideal scenario? Is it to actually have long-term friendship? Is it just to grab a coffee? What's the goal for people when they're coming into this programme and this app with you?

Gabor Kadas: It's different. It depends what their own goal is.

We have what we call “Are you in?” cards, which means basically: are you into that activity?

So it's not just meeting friends in your neighbourhood, which is set currently to 50 miles, because we are assuming you're not going to go further to meet a friend than 50 miles.

And you also say what activity you're into, whether it's tennis, volleyball, having a coffee, just walks, or whatever.

So you have these “Are you in?” cards into various activities.

And later on, actually, we'll probably have, in Q3, Q4, physical “Are you in?” cards, which is linked to the app.

So we are going to move, we're trying to move away from the app in some respects and do physical versions of whatever we can.

Because the whole way you pass, just meet with your friend and go to the market, and let's see who discovers and understands first, or whatever.

So there will be little activities on each card that you would need to do.

And on the app version, you just put in whatever you like, what you're into, and find friends who are into the same activity.

We really believe in friendship as the key human element in terms of the essence of humanity.

Because you probably, let's say, meet in a coffee shop. We also sell coffee online. But what's special about our coffee, other than being a great coffee, is that you can send a message when you order the coffee online.

It'll ask you to type in that message. That message appears as a QR code on the packaging. So when I send it to you saying, “Hey, thank you for the podcast,” you scan the QR code with the app and you get my message. So it's a really good way to send a thank-you note as well.

We're trying to also give people credit if that person stayed overnight at your place because perhaps you went fishing or something, and you don't spend a whole day fishing and then drive back.

So if you allow people to stay overnight, you get additional credits for that because I think you built, you made the extra effort to build a relationship, a friendship.

So that's our essence, basically. It's real-life activities, real-life friendships rather than virtual screen time.

Michael Unbroken: I think those are great ideas, and I think so many times we forget that the essence of the human experience is connectedness. It's going fishing. It's going on the bike ride. It's going bowling. It's, you know, maybe we had a couple drinks and we're hanging out too late, and let's be safe about it.

And there's something, it's weird because I think people can get turned off by being human. I see this thing that's happening where people are like, “It's so weird that you would want to do a human experience thing with me.”

And I'm like, “Well, that's what we do. We're human, we're people. We connect, we bond. We go and try new restaurants.”

And here's what's weird, man. I find that people are really open to do that in dating, but they're not so open to do that in friendships.

And I have this core group of guy friends that over the years, our whole thing has been, we have this guys' night. And it depends on who's around and who's travelling in the country and what's happening, because it's just life.

But we've always made a good effort, and we have group chats and we talk a lot and we are connected a lot and we've done things together.

And I will say this because I think this is really important: too many people, circling back to the beginning of our conversation, wait for someone to say hello to them at the coffee shop. And it's like you've got to take control of your own future.

And what I love about an app like this is it gives you the ability to do that, seemingly without the in-person rejection that most people fear.

And I think that's the biggest barrier of entry for people creating relationships or friendships or business or whatever that is. There's fear. They're so afraid to be judged and be told you're not enough.

But what I've discovered: if somebody tells you no and they reject you, it has nothing to do with you and has everything to do with them.

So I'm curious: before I ask you my last question, I want to ask this question because it's top of mind for me. How do you get people through the potential rejection of this experience with you?

Gabor Kadas: I think the fact that it's not face-to-face may help to cope with that initial rejection, but I turn it around, it may help to open up as well because it is not face-to-face.

The rejection is less hurtful. They may think, “Okay, fine, I'll just move on.”

But I think because the other person is also on the app, that also makes it easier to communicate with, because he or she is looking for exactly the same thing, looking to connect with somebody.

So rather than your example of randomly going up to a person in a coffee shop where you have no idea who he is or what he wants, you are aware that this person is looking for a connection with another person to do something, and that opens the door for either side to approach.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, that's a great point. I love that. You know, this has been a great conversation, and obviously I want to put people in contact with you so they can learn more and definitely grab the app when you drop this next release. So before I ask you my last question, where can everyone find you and learn more about Friending?

Gabor Kadas: The easiest way, if they go to friending.com, you can download the app.

The app currently is iOS only, but you can read messages. If you have an Android phone and you get a coffee with a barcode on it, you can download the Android version, which will only currently read the barcode and let you know what your message is.

So it's iOS only dominantly for the main part of Friending. Hopefully by the end of the year there will be an Android version as well, and it's friending.com. I don't think it's possible to forget. It's a Friending app or friending.com.

Michael Unbroken: Love it. And I love that it's a hundred percent. I just popped to the site because I was on here the other day, and I love the idea that it's for verified people who actually want to meet in real life. Because I think about this: moving to a new city, moving to a place you've never been, maybe you're on vacation in a city you haven't been. Like, people want to meet each other. It's great. It's so true to me because I've experienced it so many times. So I'm encouraging people: put yourselves out there, go make some new friends. Guess what? The internet's still going to be there. And you don't want to be the person on your deathbed looking at your phone and it told you, “Congratulations. You were on Instagram for 12.5 years.” Like, I don't know about you, but that's just not how I want to live my life. I totally agree. So that said, my friend, my last question for you: what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Gabor Kadas: I guess to me that means alone, because as a human being, I'm broken by not being part of any community. So I encourage anybody who agrees with me to solve that issue for themselves.

Michael Unbroken: Love it.

Well, my friend, thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you for listening. If today's episode and conversation brought you any value, share it with a friend because it may impact their life for the better.

And Until Next Time, My Friends.

Be Unbroken. I'll See You.