Feb. 13, 2023

Navigating the Challenges of Personal Growth and Seeking Help with Chris Sherwin

In today’s episode, I am joined with Chris Sherwin as he dives into the importance of rebuilding community trust, personal growth...
See show notes at: https://www.thinkunbrokenpodcast.com/navigating-the-challenges-of-personal-growth-and-seeking-help-with-chris-sherwin/#show-notes

In today’s episode, I am joined with Chris Sherwin as he dives into the importance of rebuilding community trust, personal growth, and understanding the barriers to seeking help in dangerous situations.

 In this podcast, you'll learn simple ways to make a difference in your community and find your voice while navigating the challenges of speaking your truth. Get valuable insights and inspiration for improving your community and yourself in this informative and thought-provoking podcast.

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Michael: Hey, what's up Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you with another episode with my guest, Chris Sherwin, who is a business and entrepreneur coach. Chris, my friend, how are you today? What is happening in your world?

Chris: Oh, Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to start getting on some of these shows like yours and start spreading the word, everything's going good, just doing my thing. I mean, out there trying to educate people and grow myself and kind of get the word out there and that's really about it. How about you? How's work going with you?

Michael: Yeah, man, life is amazing. Every single day I wake up, I'm so happy that I get do this and it's such an honor to be here with you today because I've been looking forward to connecting with you, knowing a bit about your background and your history and what you've done and I was just like, this dude's super interesting, he's had a hell of a journey and I think it's gonna be helpful for some people, especially to hear this kind of conversation that we're gonna have today so, I've been looking forward to this. For those who do not know you, Chris, tell us a little bit about your backstory, the things and your experiences of your life that have led you to where you are today?

Chris: Oh my God. Okay. So that could be a show or a therapy session, one of the two. So, I grew up in Chicago, middle class family. Dad was a teacher, mom was a nurse, and kind of grew up just in a normal household, you know, strong polish background, hardworking, that kind of stuff. And I guess I knew from kind of a young age; I knew two things. One thing is I wanted to go on law enforcement. And the second thing is I did not wanna live on a from a financial perspective that my parents did. Now, everybody kind of says, well, you know, my house was full of love, my house was, we went on vacations, my parents have been married 50 years, you know, emulate their marriage was a goal, and it was just from a financial background. I just remember like my mom and dad back in the day, you didn't have to sign a check and when you sent it to the electric company, they couldn't cash it. So, they call you, Hey Mr. Sherwin, you forgot to sign your check. And he like, oh my God, so, it biased 10 days for electric so, we really didn't have a lot of money. So, I knew those were two goals in my life and I knew that young. So, at the age of 10, you know, I started hustling, you know, regular stuff, shoveling snow, cutting grass, getting people to work for me, that kind of stuff. And then just throughout the years I just kind of just knew that education for me was a big deal. And then, so I go through normal teens, football, baseball, basketball, girls, friends, the whole, everything normal. And then I went to school, I went to college, got done with a couple degrees in three and a half years ‘cause I really wanted to get out and get into the working world. And I was working the whole time through doing my hustle, got my master's. And I just started getting job, good job after good job, people would call me, I would network and I started getting job after job. But all deep down, I knew those two goals were to work in law enforcement to help people but yet not be broke. And that was a very, very, very tough, tough gap to close. Well anyway, I was a chief financial officer for a company and we had a domestic situation one day. Officers came in, handled their business, did a great job, and I knew that's what I wanted to do. So, two weeks later I started applying, got my first police job, quit my CFO job, which basically my first year of salary as a cop was my annual bonus at the previous company. So, my wife and I talked, she thought I was absolutely crazy, she just said the only thing she wants to do is, you know, she wants to stay home and raise the children so make it work. So I go to the academy, I get on the street, start doing my thing, and like every cop I start working part-time. And then with my business background, I'm like, Hey, I could do this, you know, security better, cheaper, and more efficient. So hence I started my security business and I was blessed it, it took off and did well. Meanwhile, working on the streets, having my entrepreneurial mindset, working my business and reaching my goals, you know, by doing them both, lot of work, but it's very self-satisfying, I'm a very goal orientated person.


Over the years, doing it all, doing both those things, you know, living my dream, living my goal and decided to retire outta Illinois, retired as a policeman outta Illinois came down to Florida, I'm a policeman here now. And during this whole transition, I kind of thought to myself like, Hey, I could help other people do stuff. I could from an entrepreneur, life mindset ‘cuz people always still say like, oh, you know, how did you do it or whatever. And to me it was like, well, I just did it. I mean, I didn't really think about it. I knew where I wanted to go, so I just did it. And anyway, so that's kind of like where the whole birth of the life coaching thing came on. And then, during this whole time, there was a couple of things that we'll probably get into later in more detail that happened in my police career that kind of all came together with this whole George Floyd thing, Michael Brown, George Floyd. And being on the street, boots in the ground in all kinds of different neighborhoods, talking to all kinds of different people there was a huge disconnect. So started a podcast called Three Cops talked with the two of my friends that were policemen, and we just start putting out I guess, positive, truthful, hurtful, meaningful, gainful information for people to really realize what the world is like and how we can bring our worlds together and stop the nonsense. So that was kind of like all on my journey and basically here I am today.

Michael: Yeah, that's quite the journey, man. You know, it's really interesting because I think that especially in the society and the world we live in, especially in America, and this is an international show, people around the world, listen, you know, there is such a conflict right now in this country between law enforcement and civilians and I think it's dangerous in a lot of ways. And I think one of the unfortunate things, and I'm sure of 20 years of experience, you would agree it probably comes down to lack of training, lack of funding, the huge amount of pressure you guys are under, so on and so forth. And I remember when, and I don't know if I've ever said this on the show, when the movement around Black Lives Matter first started happening obviously as someone who is of color, it was really important for me to go March, be in the streets, I had a petition that got over 500,000 signatures to end racism in America on change.org like I was on the news talking about these things and I shared this story one day. When I was eight years, my stepfather dude, was just the most abusive man you could ever imagine, was just kicking the shit out of me and my brothers and my grandmother had happened to come home or to our house, she didn't live with us and we're just like huddled up in this corner, crying, covered in bruises, covered in marks, like the whole thing and that day she called the police. And I really, to this day, I truly believe that had they not shown up, I probably wouldn't be talking to you, right? And I posted that and dude, people fucking inflamed me, they destroyed me for sharing this experience where I'm like, look, not all people in personal development are good, not all cops are good, not all everybody's good like there's gotta be some bad people in the world. What do you think? And I'm just going straight to this ‘cuz it matters to me and this is why I wanted to have you on the show. How do we bridge this gap as a society between this conversation about all cops are bastards, which I do not agree with, some are, I'm a bastard sometime everybody is. How do you bridge that gap between that and people who just, they want safety, they want protection, but we live in such a fucking polarizing country right now. I don't think we can even have this conversation?

Chris: Well, the problem is that we have to have this conversation and I think to bridge the gap, you have to have the conversations and you have to have some type of media, because let's face it, the news isn't gonna do it. You have to have some type of me, right? You have to have some type of medium or some type of venue to get out there.

Here's a perfect source, so kind of the way this started is I have a business coach and we started talking. We were talking about the podcast and stuff like that and he told me a story about the bass player that he's in a band, bass player's, a black guy and they started talking about this. And the guy, the bass player, told my business coach that how he feels going to a Jewel, which is a grocery store as a black guy. So, my coach is telling me this and I'm like, how do you feel that way? You're a guy going to a grocery store, that's the way I look at it. I mean, you're just a guy going to a grocery store. So, we got into this long conversation and its kind of never realized to me that I think of it as a guy going to a grocery store. There are still people in this world that think of it as a black guy going to a grocery store, and I'm like, how does that still happen? And I don't get it and like when I answer a radio call, I don't get on the radio and say, Hey, are they white? Are they black? Are they Hispanic? No, these people are in trouble, whoever it is, and they need help and you go, so as I was going through this and I'm thinking about this, I'm like, you just have to get out there and you've got to do something to help the people everybody understand from each other’s aspect of what's going on and it's not only you feel it made a culture, how you feel, what makes you feel that way? Like literally, I talked to this guy and I'm like, okay, dude, so it's me, I look at this guy going to a grocery store or whatever. He's like, but you gotta remember people look at me weird and then he goes through this whole contrast, I'm like, okay. So, to me, I didn't even realize that, but it's educational. Now, I get. Now I understand. Okay. It feels a little weird. I get it. Now let's have a conversation to fix this. Let's have venues where you have the police, two policemen in uniform, which is of brass, you have two true activists, the people that want to change, not just spout off about all this and all that, but that really one change. And you have a room of a hundred people, 10 tables, 10 chairs, out of those 10 chairs, one chair is reserved for policeman and plain clothes, nobody knows who they are, every 10 minutes all you do is talk about life and how it is, and police this and people that, and whatever, every 15 minutes you change and then when you're done, you reveal the policeman and say, what have each one of you learned today and how could we spread it to 10 people? It's not easy, but innocent people are dying and people are getting hurt, and people are getting punished for things that don't have to be, that's how I think, you bridge it by having conversation.

Michael: Yeah, and I agree. And that's why I enjoyed checking out your podcast and what you're doing because you're having hard conversations. And I mean, even right now in real time, like expressing like look, we don't know what we don't know and you know, as a man of color, dude, I'm six foot four covered in tattoos like when I see a cop behind me, it terrifies me. Right? Now, some of that comes from growing up and in the environment that I grew up in. And I'll be honest with you, and people on this show knows I'm certainly not innocent of crime, so I have done some really bad things in my life, but you know, today I look at it and I just simply think to myself, you know, we actually, and I don't think people really understand the truth of what I'm about to say. We live in the safest time in the history of the world, it's never been a safer time to be alive, but we also live in the most media fueled time in the history of the world. So, anytime anyone ever does anything bad, it's highlighted at escalated to the point where everyone starts to show up and wave their flag against whatever that thing is, it's like, you know, but we're also human. I think one of the bigger disconnects is just understanding some of the foundations of police work, understanding that this country is built on slavery and I mean, obviously that's a very deepened up conversation that I don't know we necessarily need to go in right now, but I think you hit it right on the head, it's so much about the willingness to have the conversation like I fully anticipate just by having you on the show. There's gonna be people who are gonna be pissed off at me. But I think it's important because I look at the fact that we have to come together and we have to talk about incredibly difficult things, which is the foundation and the baseline of this show. So, Chris, as you go through this journey and as you're stepping deeper into having these candid conversations from just a police perspective and if you put your police hat on for a moment, what do you think is the most eye-opening thing that you've learned about yourself in doing this work?

Chris: People could change. I mean you know; I grew up, my relatives were police and they came in the fifties and the sixties and all that, you know, interracial writing and stuff and how people felt about whatever and you grow up in that environment and you kind of I've learned to change, I've learned to let people be people. And here's a perfect example I mean, I grew up Catholic, very homophobic back then, you know, it was, oh my God, it was frowned upon or whatever. And then as I get into police work, you go to homes where they have, it's a homosexual couple with children, which back in the day it was like, oh my God, but as you learn, they are prompt they're just parents, it doesn't matter. And I go to heterosexuals where they knock the crap outta their kids; kids are bleeding from the eyes, punched in the face, cut, dipped in hot boiling water and growing up it was, you know, homosexuals are bad and they can't be parents and blah, blah, blah. And then I've learned over time that they're just want to be parents, they're just parents and they are good and they are bad, and people are people. So, I think what I've learned is that I don't care who you are, what you did, what you've done in your past, it doesn't matter if you truly want to change, people could change, that's been my biggest lesson.

Michael: Yeah. You know, I fully agree with that and I look at my own life and it's like, dude, I'm such a different person. I mean, even than I was yesterday. Right? And I think that's a part of the journey and that acknowledgement and growing up in, obviously there's an age discrepancy between you and I, but I grew up in a very violent home. Right. And I look at my life and I'm like, I'll never be violent towards a child. Right? And I've changed just the way I think about violence and self-talk and so many of those things in general. I wanna switch gears and go a little bit deeper into conversation ‘cuz you mentioned something that I think will probably shake people a little bit and it's thinking about walking into these homes of these abused children. Now obviously the framework and the baseline of this show is to help give people tools to overcome those awful experiences. We don't know each other that well, but I'll share one with you, when I was four years old, my mother who was a drug addict, she actually cut off my right index finger. And so, growing up in an environment like that, it really shaped who I am and now obviously it's shaped me where I use that as a story to help empower people it doesn't destroy my life every day like it used to. Right. When you're operating, what are some of the signs that people can look for if kids are in danger? If we need to have intervention from the police or from public service?

Chris: Well, first I'd like to, I'm so sorry you had to go through that, because I've seen that throughout my years and it's devastating and I'm so glad that you've come to turn with it and grew and are using that story to help other people because it's probably one of the most devastating calls. But I think what people need to look for is you'll have all the tall tale signs of disheveled clothing, bruising, they withdraw, they don't play well with others, they become violent on little things. And I also think that people need to listen because kids will tell you in their own way, maybe not used the words, you know, mommy hit me or daddy hit me, or mom slammed my fingers in a microwave or whatever, they won't tell you that way, but they'll use words like if little Tommy uses one word to describe something for six months and then he uses another word to describe something, that has to be a clue for somebody ‘cuz they will tell you even though they're afraid, that's why they won't tell you verbatim, but they will tell you in the way they look, the way they act and the way they speak. You just have to be cognizant and you've got to listen.

Michael: What do you do with that information?

Chris: So, what I do, normally when we get involved as the police, it's already, you know, we're there till DCF shows up and a grandparent or another parent or guardian, so, we see it till the kid's safe. What you do as a civilian is you report it because here is my take on this and I'm gonna get probably get a flame thrower email from a thousand people. It goes to see something, say something. If you don't think something's right, say something because if DCF showed up at my door, I'd be like, okay, what's up? Well, we got this report that this and this report then, okay, come on in, look around, what do you need? What do you need? Okay. It takes five minutes and then it can go away, all right? But you just can't fly off the handle and start calling DCFS for every little thing. I think there's enough avenues where you can get enough people involved to make an educational decision, how far you take it, whether it's another teacher, a friend, or whatever, run it past somebody, but take that information and let's just say you're just like, Hmm, okay, it's just weird, but it doesn't rise to the level of just keep that in a back file of your head, because then the next time it happens, now you got two, now we have to look at things a little deeper, but take that information, either store it or used it.

Michael: Yeah. And I think you had something right in the head it’s like you have to be willing to. And look, you might lose friends in this process, you might lose family members who are gonna be pissed off at you because maybe it's not even what you think it is, but more often than not, it actually is what you think it is. And I think that as and as individuals and I think maybe that's really difficult because we live in a very separated time as opposed to ever before and the dangers of abuse live in your cell phone now and on the internet and child trafficking. I sponsor a nonprofit called O.U.R., Operation Underground Railroad, where they help rescue children from child trafficking. And it's like they find kids from video games on phones. Right. I mean, it's literally everywhere now. And so, I think it is, there's a level of diligence that that one must play in order to do that and recognizing that reaching out to the police is not a bad thing. There's a conversation that I've had in my head about this. So, I'll give you a perfect example, I was on the highway, gosh, probably about a month ago, and it was later in the evening, it was probably like 10 o'clock at night. And you know, somebody's drunk on the highway when they're driving on the shoulder at 10 o'clock at night. Right. It might be a telltale fucking sign. And so, I pick up my phone and I call the police and for a moment there's hesitation, right? Chris, because there's a hesitation because I go, well, you know, what happens when, what happens if, and I think because of even the program I'm trying to move through media, through television and movies and all the exposure I've had, it was like, okay, if I call the cops or will they hurt that guy? Will they kill that guy? Blah, blah, blah. And then I thought to myself, so for a second, well wait a second. What if that guy causes a 10-car pile-up and a pregnant woman dies and her kids are in the back of the car and things like that, and I did. And I made the decision now, and one thing that I know, because I've done it before is like, report it anonymously, they asked me my name. I said, I don't wanna give you my name, it's anonymous. Go and find this guy he's right here. There are people who are just terrified to reach out, there are women right now listening or men who are being abused in their home, maybe their children are being hurt, there's all of these different reasons why it would make sense to have police intervention and a lot of it's in these very dangerous situations. Why do you think it is that people do not reach out in those moments, especially of danger and often as you know, too late and how can we give them some tools to feel safer to do so earlier?

Chris: I think it's fear of repercussion. I think obviously the children don't reach out because they're gonna get the shit knocked out of 'em by whoever the abuser is. If they come in and by the time that the police or DCFS get there, they set the stage, they got milk in the fridge, you know, they've covered the bruises with turtlenecks or whatever, you know, they had a chance to set the stage. But when that person in DCFS leaves or the police leave, they're gonna get the snot knock. I think it's fear. The second thing is, I think it's also fear from an adult standpoint that they're afraid to lose friends. And listen, I've done a number of things and just by what you're telling me, by getting out, you know, getting from where you were as a child to where you are now, it took a lot of self-discipline, self-reflect, hard work, dedication. So, for you to go, well, listen, if I lose a friend because I'm gonna report something that I think is an abusive situation or bad, and then so be it. I'll make another friend. I'm the same way. I'm not afraid to lose friends. For stuff that is so important to me and I don't care what it is, whether it's child abuse or my view on, you know, whatever, guns or abortion or whatever. I don't care, I'm not afraid to lose friends. And I think if we get over the fear and realize the outcome can be this child will live another day, this person will not go down the road and kill a school bus of children and I'm willing to lose that, to gain this. I think that's over, you know?

And number two, as far as like are the police gonna kill 'em or whatever. I think you and I could have a whole different show on that. But statistically speaking, people make their own beds and they lie in them. And for anybody to worry about the person who is committing a crime, driving drunk on the road, abusing a child to get over that fear of what could happen to them based on their interaction with the police. You gotta kind of put that aside because the probability of them getting hurt by the police is substantially lower than them hitting somebody and killing them or abusing a child till they die.

Michael: Yeah. And one in five children die in their home today. Like even saying that stat just gave me the chills, man, because it's fucking disgusting. I think about the truth that we can come together and we can create change and we can heal and we can help each other be better human beings.

Chris: As policeman and I think just as a human, as a human race, we should, and I do take an oath to defend people that can't defend themselves. Adults, you know, whomever, but ultimately a child who is extremely defenseless that can't even use words, that is so powerful inside me to make sure that that they are defended and they're able to grow as best they can into the best per pillars of society, it gives me a lot of motivation.

Michael: What about that drives you?

Chris: I think what the thing that drives me the most is I just never did like bullies and I don't care if you know, you're picking on somebody because they don't dress the same way, they can't defend themselves because they come from a poor family, a black family, Hispanic family, I've seen it all, interracial marriages, your shoes are too big, your pants are too short, you don't have the same purse, I've seen it all. And for me, I just don't like bullies, I just don't, ‘cuz everybody is their own individual and should be able to live the way they want to live, that's what drives me.

Michael: Yeah, I agree. Now, was that because you experienced bullying as a child or was it just you just felt like you wanted to stand up for people?

Chris: I don't wanna say bullying ‘cuz I really was never bullied ‘scuz I was a bigger kid and you know, and I played football and stuff. But I guess you could say it was a sense of bullying, but it was more of a mental thing because I didn't want to go to parties. I wanted to work on my business. I wanted to go out and get five more houses to cut grass so I could charge five bucks and pay guys three and make two, or you know, I didn't want to go out and get drunk or whatever. I wanted to work on this and work on myself and so it was more that I wanted to be me, I didn't want to be anybody else. And I think a lot of people took that like I was kind of kinda weird, kind of different especially growing up, like everybody's going to parties and doing whatever they do and I'm like, fuck, I just wanna go home, sleep cause I wanna get up and, you know, work on my business or be an entrepreneur. And I think, so that kind of drove me because, I wanted to be me. I wanna be the part of me or the best product of me I can ‘cuz I get one shot at this. And I think that for me, kind of drove me through high school. And again, if you were to call it bullying, it was like mental bullying, I mean obviously nobody ever beat me up or whatever. But I think that's what kind of gave me my drive to like let people be the be who they are, they get one shot at this and let them do it the way they want.

Michael: Yeah. I think we do have to give each other the space to step into whatever it is that you decide is best for you. So, I grew up a boy scout and I felt, this is weird, you've seen this, but most people probably don't relate. I grew up a boy scout in the hood, it's very strange experience. Right. But it played a really beautiful, important role in my life. I thought I was going to go into military, I destroyed my knee, I couldn't get in. Also, I had graduated with a 1.2 GPA, so they weren't gonna let me in anyway and I didn't have high school diploma. So, my sense of service as a kid was like, all right, well I can't do that so whatever. How do you think people just in the day-to-day can be of more service to their family, their friends, their communities? Because I think most people think to be of service, they have to be a firefighter or a cop or in the public service. But you know, I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. So how can people be of better service just in the day-to-day?

Chris: I just think, I mean, you don't have to be a firefighter or a paramedic or a policeman or whatever to be in service, you just have to be a good person and be able to help people and speak your truth, and speak your story. I mean, I'm not ashamed to tell my parents that I love them dearly, but I didn't want to live check to check and whatever and I go out and I strive to do that, you know, whether it's nephews or nieces or people on the street that are like, well, you know, I may not, or I don't want to, or whatever, just be there for them and be a sounding board. Be a positive role model. Like if this is something you don't want to do, don't do it. If you do want to do it, do it. I'm here for you. I think to be a service, you have to treat people well. Try and bless people if you're blessed. Be there for people and point them in the right direction. You don't have to carry a gun or put out fires. You just gotta be a civilized good human being, that when people need some assistance, you're there for them or offer it for free to whomever.

Michael: Yeah. I totally agree. And you said something about like speaking your truth, like being honest. And I think a lot of people are afraid to do that and it sounds to me like you've had the privilege or luck maybe of being able to step into that from a young age for me, it took, I mean, I'm probably still figuring it out today, right? And I think a lot of people are, but how do you kind of step into that? How do you you actually own and speak your truth? Especially if you know it might upset somebody because dude, I piss people off all the time, so I get it.

Chris: You and me both. I just think that you have to be comfortable with it and you don't get emotional about it and you speak from the heart. I just think that this is me and allow you to have your opinion, but yet we're still civilized human beings that can be friends just with different opinions, but the goal is the same whether you're talking about world peace or you know, maybe going into the community and reducing crime in this community or reducing teen predator, whatever it is, just because you have a different idea of it, and I have a different idea of it, that doesn't mean we don't have the same goal in common, but we can hopefully sit down and you'll be able to give up a little, I'll be able to give up a little meet someplace in the in the middle and solve this. So, for me it's just going, what is your end goal and don't deviate from your true self. And I think if you run into enough people, there are gonna be a majority of the people that actually wanna sit down and talk. But if you give them the avenue not to be afraid and not go, you know, that's reject. I go, okay. I hear what you're saying. I don't agree because of this. I think if you actually sit down and give people the avenue that where they could speak their mind and speak the truth and listen, they don't have to be afraid. I think that's a big part of it. Why should people be afraid? Why should you be afraid to tell me how you feel or how you grew up? Or you know that you're afraid when you get pulled over by the police? Why? Okay, let's talk through it.

There's been times I've been on stops with people that I was out there for 15 minutes on a basic cell phone or whatever, and as soon as the young man said, you know what, I was scared I was gonna get shot. Okay, guess what? Here's the deal, you're not gonna get shot because you don't have a gun, right? No. Do you want to kill me? No. Okay. I was out there for 15 minutes having a discussion with this young man, and by the time we were done, we shook hands, he had my personal cell phone number. Now that young man is gonna go out and talk to 10 other people about, Hey, I understand that why you're scared I get it, there's what you could do and tell your friends to do this, and it'll all go a lot smoother. So, I take 10 minutes outta my day to help to ease somebody's fear. Now guess what? The next policeman he talks to, if he's afraid of something, he'll have a conversation with him.

Michael: Yeah. That's powerful. And I do think its community based, right? And it's conversational and it's about the willingness to have hard conversations. I mean, that's literally why you're here right now ‘cause I want to have a hard conversation. And I know this conversation's hard because we're talking about child abuse and we're talking about being police, we're talking about this huge discrepancy between both of our worlds. I mean, like you look at this and I think constantly, especially when it comes to this show, I'm like, I want to not only understand for me, but I want this audience and I want the people who consume this to just think about the possibility that maybe what we believe isn't true. And we live in a country, I dunno if you've ever read Mindset by Carol Dweck, but it's arguably the greatest book ever written. And we live in a country, especially in the United States, in which everyone is so like standing on their hill about something specifically, and it's like, wait a second, that's the ultimate fixed mindset. It's the ultimate fixed mindset to pigeonhole people into something because of how they look, how they talk, how they act, their career, what it is that they do, as opposed to just realize like, there's fucking 8 billion people on Planet Earth. We're not going to agree with each other on everything. Chris, I'm sure you and I probably don't agree on a lot of things, but we probably agree on a lot of things and I think it's in the discourse in which we can figure that out.

One of the things I was curious that I want to kind of go back to as we progress in the conversation that I thought was really interesting. I think that this holds true for a lot of people, they want to be of public service. I have many friends who are teachers who are fucking amazing people. I have friends who are police officers who are amazing people. I have friends that my little brothers right now, he just literally today text me right before this conversation that he passed his test for the Indianapolis Fire Department and he wants to be of service. And I'm super excited about that and I love everyone who wants to be of service, I don't love that they're fucking poor. And so, one of the things that I want to go into is, you know, you talked about this idea that you're able to be entrepreneurial and have this job and build wealth in your life and not have to suffer through, hey, we didn't sign the check, so we get electricity for 10 days. One of my big missions in life is to empower people with the tools also to not live in poverty. And as inflation goes up and as cost of goods go up, like this ain't slowing down. Right? And we need ways for people to become financially stable, often independently of their career of choice. So, what I'm really curious about for really everyone is how do you kind of step into that arena where you're able to both have this career and this thing that you're driven by, but also go and build something else to create financial stability in your life?

Chris: Well, I think it starts off with a goal and a passion. My father gave me the best advice when I was growing up, and he said, to be the person you wanna be, figure out what you don't want to be and be what you want to be and do what you want to do. And that's kind of like where I took that from because it, I didn't want to do these things. So, what is my avenue? What's the reverse engineering to do it? And that's what I did.

Fear is the second thing. Trust me, I had a child on the way, house, mortgage cars, married, and when I decided to be a policeman and then starting this large entrepreneur journey and make that leap. But I just had to take it in perspective. I had to work and then come home and work and then, you know, make time for my family and everything. I just think if you do it in a systematic manner where you can devote a little bit to everything and well, not even a little bit, but if you sit down with your own self or your partner and just say, Hey, look it, this is what I want to do,this is where I'm gonna go, we have to set a schedule and you truly want it, and you don't give up and you don't let fear take over. I think you'll do it. Now, don't get me wrong, it may not be in, like, look it, I just started my coaching business. Do I know if that this is gonna take off? No, I don't. But you know what? It's something that I thought of could be a service and something I'm very passionate about to help people become successful just like you to not live in poverty, maybe I could help. Guess what? I'm gonna give it a shot. I think if you go out there and you try and trust me, you will fail. Things are not going to work out. Now, I'm not talking about failing where you're gonna lose your house, your car, or whatever, as long as you set it up right? But stuff is not gonna take off as fast as, or whatever, just keep going. If it's really something you want and you're passionate about, just keep going. Fear's gonna be there and I don't care what you do, where you go. Coming on this podcast, I'm fearful, you know, going to hit the next house I'm fearful, you know, starting this other business, I'm fearful. I mean, so things are fearful, but you just have to meet them head on as best you can to do it.

Michael: Yeah. And where do you think that support plays a role in this? Like I think most people think they have to do this stuff on their own, right? For you, what does that mean?

Chris: I mean, for support, I think for me it's for my wife. My wife doesn't really have an entrepreneurial mindset, but she knows that I gotta be me, she looks at me like I got nine heads, she doesn't understand but she lets me be me, and then I engage with people who have that mindset and it just gives you motivation, it gives you encouragement and stuff like that. And again, I also think, you know, with the people that don't necessarily think the way you think, if you have their support of by like, okay, crazy, you do you, and like here, my daughter and my wife's, they'll come in and say, Hey dad, come on time out, let's do an hour or whatever. And they have every right to do where I'm sure when we first started, they were afraid to, you know, but you've got to talk about it. And that's where I think that's where your support comes from, I think your support comes from people that love you and either our like, Hey, your cheerleader, or they let you do, and then you had these other people that you're networking and your friends and everything that are there from a entrepreneur standpoint, life standpoint that are there to support you.

Michael: Yeah. And it sounds to me like so much about that is about community, right? And coming together and recognizing that, you know, at least for me, and this is what I think about every single day, is like I can't do any of this on my own. Right? And I can't have hard conversations without having the supportive people who are willing to sit down across from me and have the hard conversation and it's so reciprocal because I think we often feel like we're on an island, right? We're by ourselves, nobody gets as, nobody understands, it's like, well, that's actually not as true as you want to believe it is, it's really fascinating how supportive people will be. I mean, because, you know, you think about sitting down and getting into the real truth about life and it's like, we're all trying to figure this out together. We don't know what we're doing.

Chris: Right. And I just think the other, I mean, support also comes from being able to sit down and have this conversation because all right, let's just take, I'm boots on the ground. I see that there is a majority of crime and babies being born without fathers in the black community. Okay. A lot of recidivism for people going back to jail. Well, let's just take jail, we listen, we build roads and, and this is from a guy who doesn't know, you know, II've learned about the culture, but I'm not in the culture. Well, listen, we know that people go to jail, black men go back to jail more often than most people. Well then why don't we set up a program? We build roads, right? You get 300 men that are in jail and you teach 'em to build a road, they go out there and they work with these companies, they do their time, they get up to at work at five, they go out, they learn to build roads, they come back at six, they get paid $30 an hour, just like anybody else, every week they sit down with a financial person and they're like, okay, you made $500 and I don't care what the numbers are, it costs you a dollar a week to stay in the county jail, it costs you $2 because you have children, it costs you $3 for food, this, that, okay, at the end, this is what you have and this is what you should go do. Okay? Then when they get out, these young men have a skills, they feel better about themselves, that they don't have to go do crime to survive. Now they gonna go build roads, who knows? But guess what? Now if they go work at Best Buy, they go work at Jewel, they go, or they want to go to school because they know what to get happen. Well, why aren't we doing that? Again, and this is just something we know where the problems are. And I think by having the hard conversations with people that you don't know about, why can't we fix this because to me, any problems could be fixed ‘cuz there's always a solution. Again, this could be a whole another show, but I think the support also comes from conflict where we can have that conversation and guess what, when we're done, there's a solution to the problem because you would know more about stuff than I would in some aspects. Right?

Michael: Yeah. Well, there are people who are making strides at doing exactly what you're talking about. And there are people who are attempting to create massive change in the world. And again, I think this is a long conversation that probably is best suited on another venue but you know, you look at the prison industrial system, my uncle, who is a white man, is in prison for life, three strike rule gone forever. Right? And it's like his life is forever away because of his decisions and also because of the lack of education and the lack of resources and tools and supplies and drugs in this country and addiction and pharmaceuticals and, you know, the list goes on and on and on. And I wish it were as easy as just sitting down and be like, oh, this is the idea, let's go execute against it. But you know, there are environments and I think it would be dismissive not to say that the, for some people, the cards are stacked against them statistically, I, me personally, I should be dead or in jail, period. Okay. And I'm not, and that only comes from decisions that I've made a little bit of fucking luck too, not just to be straight up, you know, but mainly because of decisions. And I think about if we can empower people and let them know that there's another way, and again, that's just like this conversation, we're having a discourse about another way to think about it, ‘cuz I don't want people to be in fear.

Chris: But that's what I'm saying, Michael, I'm saying that, you made choices and decisions. And I'll tell you what, I don't believe in luck. I don't. I believe in the fact that you made the choices to create your luck. Fuck luck. Okay. It doesn't, you did that. Okay. You made the right choices and you know, were you in the right place at the right time sometimes. Sure. But guess what? That was by your choices and your decisions, but I digress. Anyway, but you did it, like you and I? Why are we not sitting down with people who can make better decisions because you lived it. I've seen it. I have ideas. You have ideas and getting these venues out there, but what do we see? 52 shots in Chicago, 72 shot here, and rioting and all this stuff. Why do we see the problems and those solutions? And listen, we're not gonna get it done with one conversation, but guess what? You and I sit down and we had this conversation, we're not gonna solve it. But guess what? We're gonna have a basis start addressing one issue. I don't care what that issue is, whatever it is, we have a basis to start an issue. I understand you; you understand me, people see the proof that you did it. Bro, you had all the car deaths against you, bro. I mean, like you said, you should be in jail or dead, everything was stacked against you, Michael, but you came through. But that story needs to be told and that story needs to be told on a bigger level, that story needs to be told where you're looking at it through a policeman's eyes, so you could further, and that's what I'm saying. It's there, but I think what needs to be embraced is that people can, and this can change, it's not gonna be easy, but I think the fear of, well, this can't change or if I go up and shake a policeman's hand or if I go out to lunch with Michael or whatever, that I'm gonna be viewed this way or that way, I don't give a fuck ‘cuz guess what? I get up in the morning. I thank God for a blessed, I am above ground and not in jail. I go out and I do my thing. I come home, take care of my family, be a good friend, be a good father, be a good person, try and make somebody else's day better. I thank God for the full day and I go to bed. I don't care what people think, but I do know that I wanna make a positive impact that day.

Michael: Yeah. And I mean, and that's the same and that's why when I decided to bring you on this, I thought to myself if there's one thing I hope people will take away from this conversation and really obviously not knowing what it is, this isn't scripted you and I are having a conversation. I thought to myself, the one thing I hope is that at least we could plant a seed, at least we could have a conversation in a way that is hopefully enlightening to people for one thing only. And not by my own forced hand have we landed here, but my thought was my only hope in this conversation is that we could help erase some of the fear of people reaching out for help and support from law enforcement when they're in danger in or when their kids are in danger. And my hope is that that's the one thing they take away. The conversation about the other elements, dude, we need a long fucking time to get into them. But my hope is today that the person listening right now, whose child is being abused or the wife that's being hurt or the husband that's being abused ‘cuz men get abused too, right? They'll be willing to pick up the phone for support, whether it's law enforcement or someone else to help in that situation.

Chris: I wanna say one more thing with that. Don't just stop at your local police or your local abuse places or there's federal County, state. There are more venues that you can call if you feel that you are abused and you're not getting the satisfaction from a local government. Please, there's more venue. Local, federal, state, county, please, there are other avenues to get help. Anyway, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Michael: No, I love that. And thank you for adding that ‘cause I think it's really important. Chris, I wanna thank you for being on the show, before I ask you my, my last question, tell everyone where they can find you and learn more about your podcast?

Chris: So my podcast, there's 3copstalk.com. Gmail is also if you have a suggestion for a show or you wanna be a guest, 3copstalk@gmail.com And then obviously wherever you get your podcast, 3copstalk.com please download, listen, and subscribe. And seriously, if you have any ideas, reach out to me and there's some life help, I just started my coaching business, thecoachingcop. You could find that everywhere through coachingcop@gmail.com. But seriously reach out to me anywhere so we could start having these conversations because as much as people don't think that this is true, it's hard for cops to go out each and every day to see the shenanigans that are happening then we could have solutions.

Michael: Yeah, I love it. And hopefully more conversations like this will lead us down that path. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Chris: What it means to me to be unbroken is you have to be you, you have to stand up for who you are, what you believe in, where you want to go, and you have allowed to be a safe place for other people to be themselves and let them get to where they're going and help them along the way, that's unbroken.

Michael: Hmm. Brilliantly said my friend. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation. Thank you so much for listening.

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Michael UnbrokenProfile Photo

Michael Unbroken


Michael is an entrepreneur, best-selling author, speaker, coach, and advocate for adult survivors of childhood trauma.

Chris SherwinProfile Photo

Chris Sherwin

Cop Veteran/ Life Coach

Chris Sherwin started out in business administration earning his MA and BSBA in just 3.5 years and his MBA in two years. As a Controller for a worldwide software company, and a CFO of $30 million, details and processes soon became his most valuable skill. He took an interesting turn in his career after an incident in life led him to pursue law enforcement and public service. He served as a police officer for 20 years and simultaneously began his own private security company demonstrating that you can fulfill all of your goals and dreams in life with the right mindset. Through his time in the department and running USA Private Security, his expertise in streamlining processes and increasing communication helped many police departments improve their trust and relationship with the communities they served. Now his goal is to do the same for individual entrepreneurs. Bringing practical solutions to the table and helping guide those he mentors to new levels in their personal and professional life!