How to Overcome Burnout | Transform Anxiety | with Dr. Sharon Grossman

 Michael: Hey! What's up, Unbroken Nation! Hope you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you with another episode with my guest, The 7E Solution to Burnout, Dr. Sharon Grossman. What's up my friend? How are you today? What is happening?

Sharon: I am super excited to be here, Michael. I know recently I had you on my podcast, decode your Burnout to talk about everything that is relevant to you and your journey and all the amazing things that you're doing in the world. And here we are now, kind of me having coming onto your show and we're here to talk about all thing’s burnout.

Michael: Yeah, I'm excited. And you know what I think is interesting about kind of the field of expertise you and I are both in is they're kind of like buzzwords right now and they're like the hot thing, but we've both been doing this for a while. I know you've been going at it for a minute, you've got a PhD I'm heading in towards eight years and I'm so happy that we were able to weather the storm and still be here despite the cast of the last few years. But before we jump into all of that, I'm curious, what's one thing about your past that I would need to know to understand who you are today?

Sharon: So, one thing I think that has really shaped a lot of the decisions and kind of how I ended up, how our early life experiences kind of shape our, just our schema, our belief system, our all of our decisions, our unconscious beliefs, all of it. Well, when I was eight years old, we moved from Israel to the states. And so, I was an immigrant, I did not speak more than maybe five words in English. And I was placed immediately into the third grade where people were already reading books and speaking and doing all this stuff and I had to really catch up, and the crazy thing about that was there was almost no support. So, it wasn't like somebody was there to help catch me up, I was just kind of thrown into the mix and expected to figure it out. And that meant that the entire first year I was doing a lot of staring at walls and going to the bathroom just to fill up the time and play with soap and water ‘cause I had nothing else to do. So, that happened and in addition to that being challenging, I think the harder thing for me was the cultural difference. I came into a school where it was a private Jewish school, a lot of the kids were from high SES families, they had a certain way, they're very Americanized, they had a certain way of being in the world, and it was just completely different from everything I had ever known growing up. And so, I think the big impact that it had on me was just feeling like I didn't fit in and I've noticed that as an adult, that theme keeps showing up for me. Where I go somewhere and I always have that feeling like I kind of don't fit in here, I kind of don't fit in here, you know? And I don't know if that played into me becoming an entrepreneur, because I think it was maybe something else, but you could say that being an entrepreneur, even if it wasn't, the reason that I got into it is, part of as a solution for it, because I get to create my own world.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, I resonate with that a lot. You know, and that's something that I find to be a common theme for entrepreneurs. We were the outsiders or the outcast, or the weird kid, or we didn't speak English, or we moved, or we were the most poor kids in the school like, whatever it is. And I know that not all entrepreneurs had like a chaotic background, but like most of us did, you know? And so, I think that when you step into the willingness to do it on your own like in it's contextual, right? We can't do everything on our own. But like that thing of like, if you don't see me, I'm gonna go make my own path, I'm gonna build my own table, I'm gonna sit over here and then if you want to join me, you can like that, there's a freedom in that, you know? ‘Cause especially so many children, they go through that and then you become an adult. Actually, it's so funny you said that cause like, just a little bit ago I posted on social media, like you can't really go down this process of discovery and self and changing your identity alone, right? And so, if you feel alone and ostracized, like you step out into the path and you're like, okay, I don't really know what I'm doing, but you start to pick up bits and pieces, and as you do that, you find the symbiosis of other people in the world. And suddenly like, I don't know if this is true for you, but my community has come from entrepreneurs, from leaders, from changemakers like you because like when I'm around, I call them civilians, I know that's such a bad thing to say, but when I'm around people who like are not in entrepreneurial spirits, it's hard to connect sometimes, and even then, like if I go to dinner with friends and they're teachers and doctors and lawyers, I'm like, I don't really connect entirely. So, I think it's spot on that, you know, growing up like that lays this path.

When you were young and you were in that, I mean, I feel like a lot of kids feel like they are being punished or like the world is against them like, what was going through your head as a kid in this new environment, being uprooted from everything you know, because eight years old, you're old enough to know that things are different.

Sharon: You know, I think I'm blessed with not having a super negative mindset, and I say that because I see so many of my clients struggling with that, and I think definitely something that contributes to burnout, and I think that's kind of like the saving grace. But what I can say, kind of looking back at it is, even though it was a joint decision for both of my parents. I feel like I held a lot of resentment for my mom in particular because not only did we move, but my mom is like somebody that was born in Israel and my dad's Canadian, so he's like the Anglo-Saxon. Right. And so, she was my tie to the culture and the language because that's where I was born. And when we moved, she really wanted me and my sister to integrate. And so, she was trying to do us a favor by speaking to us in English at home and I felt so resentful that not only did we now move, and I've left all my friends behind and everything I've known and my extended family, everybody, but now my one connection, which is my mom. Now she's speaking to me in English, so I've lost that too. And I feel like I held on to resentment for a very long time with her and then a kind of interesting thing happened where, you know, fast forward maybe like a year or so into this process, now I am like fluent, right? I'm like nine or so, and I'm fluent, and I speak English. So now I'm coming home and I'm speaking English at home and now she's trying to revert back to speaking in Hebrew so that we don't lose that piece. And at that point, I didn't want to talk to her in Hebrew anymore and I think that was perhaps that resentment that I was holding onto. And I've battled with that for years and it's really only in the last, I don't even know, handful of years or so that I've gone back and started speaking to her in Hebrew. You know, but something happens when you are in a situation where you just lose everything, everything that's meaningful to you. And I mean, it brings up emotions and you got to funnel that somewhere and I think what I did is I just funneled it against her, and it's not that it impacted our relationship, like we had a great relationship, but there was that one piece that I was still holding onto in the back of my mind. And I think much of it was probably very subconscious and it really only came up when I went to therapy and my therapist kind of brought it up and I was just like, there it is, that's the thing.

Michael: Yeah. Therapy will do that to you. You have those moments where you're like, d*mn, you like nailed that, like, you can't see the force for the trees, right? And some of that becomes subconscious and autonomic behavior. Right. We don't even realize we're treating people the way that we treat them. Right. And resentment is like, that's such a dangerous word, you know, because it's right there, it's best friends, it's probably actually married to contempt. Right. And then contempt is the number one indicator of failed relationships to like, have disdain for another human being as, as a dark place to be. I think often that can carry over into other relationships, I mean, especially the relationships with yourself, because what you start to do is like, reflect and you're like, I don't even like me of course, I don't like this person. What power does that play in your life where you acknowledge like, wow, I have resentment towards my mother, like, what happened in that moment for you?

Sharon: It's the kind of moment that you have when you're working with a therapist or a coach where that light bulb goes off and you're like, huh, I didn't even know that was there. So just having that self-awareness is really important because you don't know what you don't know and as I mentioned, so much of your experiences and your beliefs just end up going deep into your subconscious that it's in there and you forget that it's in there or you're not even aware that it's in there. So, it's brought up to the surface and now you have a choice, you can deal with it, you can find a way to do things differently, to make different decisions moving forward and it was a work in progress for me. And I'm eventually, like I got there, right? But to kind of bring it back full circle, I think I was reflecting on this the other day, I think it's really ironic. So now I have a daughter and she was born here in the States, but in order to kind of keep that thread alive, I also speak to her in Hebrew. So, she's American, but she's bilingual and there was a period where she was kind of speaking to me a little bit in Hebrew, a little bit of in English so, she's capable, but then she reverted only to English so, she responds, but she doesn't speak, she doesn't produce. And sometimes we'll get into situations like especially I noticed around other people that when she wants to have that little kind of secret message between us or something where she's just, she wants me to know what's going on. She'll like ask me a question or she'll say something and she'll kind of pull that out of her toolbox, you know? But I also noticed that the grand majority of the time, which is like 99% of the time, she speaks to me in English. And I noticed the resentment coming up for me of like her not engaging with me, and I'm like, is this karma? You know?

Michael: The answer is yes. You said something that I think is really important. You know, you said you have to deal with it, right? These things come to the surface, we discover the truth for many people, you know, and this is one of the biggest reasons I decided to invest so much effort into building this show over the last five years is because a lot of times people have those moments come to the surface and they are faced with the decision, but they lack the courage or the knowledge or just the will to do anything about it and there's something about dealing with it that feels both abrasive but also, free because ultimately like it's going to be both, that's at least been my experience. And so, I'm going to ask you this in a very pointed way because we're going to create some more context around it. But what was it that you did deal with it? Like how did you go through healing a relationship, not only with your mother, but with yourself in regard to the resentment that you had? The reason I'm asking you that is people have built up resentment for things 10 years ago, 20, 30, 40 years, they're going to their deathbed having resentment and contempt for their family, for their mothers, for their parents, for their friends. And for me, one of the things that has been really powerful in my life is I've found the freedom to let go, it's the only way I'm here like no joke. So, how is it that you've been able to deal with it? Because I want people to deal with their sh*t.

Sharon: Yeah, good question. So, I think it started out as resentment when I made that initial decision to not engage with my mom in Hebrew when I was that little kid, like nine years old. I think what ended up happening as a result of that decision is I built a habit around speaking to her in English, no matter how she approached me. So, the resentment, I think ignited that whole transformation but I wasn't like feeling resentful towards her. I think what happened is that habit was really hard to break because that was already established and then what it generated kind of next layer is embarrassment. Like I am used to talking to her in this language, and now I'm embarrassed to talk to her in this other language. And there's no rationale for it, it doesn't really logically make any sense, but that's how I felt. And for me to get to the other side of that, I had to overcome the embarrassment more than the resentment. In other words, it was like this multi-step process it was resentment about the circumstance, which then led to the habit and then in order to break the habit, which led to embarrassment, I had to get over that emotion. Right. So, it's layered and I think really symbolic of a lot of stuff that comes up in our lives Right. We have multiple emotions that come up with anything that we're experiencing.

If let's say somebody does something that really traumatizes us, we have possibly resentment, we have anxiety, we have shame, we have depression, we have so many things all at once, and that's because. there are so many different thoughts that we have generated that are attached to different aspects of that experience. What does it mean about me? What does it mean about them? What does it mean about my future? We make up all kinds of stories and therefore we have lots of thoughts and lots of emotions, and so it's complex. And that's kind of how I found my experience with my mom and having to break that cycle meant that I would take little bites out of it. So, she would talk to me and I would respond in Hebrew in like one sentence and then go back to English. So, it was kind of like dipping the toe in the water and then going back and then I would push myself to say two sentences and then I would like go back. And I eventually got to a point where I was like, this is stupid, I'm an adult like what am I doing right? And I got over it but it took a process. I think that's true for anything that we deal with in our lives.

If there's something that is keeping you stuck emotionally or just in terms of your story, you might have to bite-size the thing, right? You might have to play with it, and you're sending a message to your subconscious mind, like, it's okay, I'm safe, like nothing terrible happened, right? And then you're like, oh, okay, maybe I can do more the next round and then you build up the courage to eventually get to the other side if that's really the goal that you have for yourself.

 Michael: Yeah, it is a process. I think the hard part is, especially when it comes to relationships with people, is that we either want it to be fixed immediately or we just want it to go away. And it's like, and then you feel that tension constantly and you're like, wait a second, this isn't right, something here doesn't feel good. And it's like if you don't deal with it, it kind of eats at you. You're like, why is my relationship with my husband suck? Like why does my relationship with my friends feel unfulfilling and like, why is it that my relationship with myself is catastrophic? It's ‘cuz you're so tied into these experiences of the past that inform you that often build these autonomic responses and mechanisms to everything in your environment where you're just like, I don't know, I guess it's just who I am. And then you sit down and, in a moment, you have a conversation with someone. This is why I love coaching people, it's like sometimes we'll just have a conversation and I'll be like, that's the reason. You know? Or you have a therapist that goes, that's the reason, let's connect the dots here. Then it becomes a game changer, but in that it's your responsibility to move forward, to deal with it. And that could be anything that could be about the most harshest of experiences of life, that could be about feeling like you've been stripped of a part of your livelihood because you moved, it could be because of a divorce in the family, it could be because of so many different things. And it's like at some point you do have to acknowledge it, you have to look at it. What I'm curious when we are in these places of healing it can often feel like it takes so much longer than we want it to. And I know obviously like people who listen to the show, they're like, well, it doesn't seem like that's a big deal to have resentment for your mother and then you like speak Hebrew to her. But it's like, actually that's not the core of who you are, that's your being. And that's the thing I'm always tying into in people's experiences and stories, it's like, who you are is who you are and everyone's journey is different, and there's nuances in our experience, and something that feels very small to me is gigantic to you, but really it's all the same when you kind of narrow it down and you break it down, it's all this impact on our identity and who it is that we are. How did those moments of growth when you were like, I'm going to chip away at this, I'm going to build into this, I'm going to figure this out. How did those moments reshape your identity and the way you thought about yourself in the world?

Sharon: So, first of all, I want to say that everybody's got their own struggle and one thing that I always like to say is don't compare yourself to other people, because just like you said, my story may seem like peanuts to somebody else, right? It might seem like no big deal, I've been through so much worse, right? But I can't think about my story in comparison to other people's stories because I didn't have their story, I had my story, and we each have our own journey. And we each have challenges and hardships on our journey, but I think the blueprint is more or less the same and that's kind of what the takeaway is from this conversation for people tuning in. It's about thinking about what are the underlying ingredients to this recipe, right? And what I said was, it starts off with a decision that you make and that decision comes from a certain state or a certain circumstance. In my case, it was because I was resentful, I made that decision, but I made it as a nine-year-old, right? And even though I didn't really have those feelings as something tangible that I was able to access or felt like it was really continuing and that I was very clearly aware of, it was that decision that lasted and that decision then affected my identity and then the point in my adulthood where I decided, you know what? This is really childish. I want to change it because I kept thinking to myself. One of these days, my mom is no longer going to be on this planet, and I don't want to be somebody that has that regret of I wish I would have for her sake. I did it for her because I wanted her to have the satisfaction of coming back to that really meaningful connection through language, through culture. I didn't want her to die without giving her that gift that's what drove me, right? So now that I'm on the other side of that, I can breathe more easily knowing that I'm not holding back, that I'm not continuing a habit that I began as a nine-year-old and that I've taken charge of the thing that was one of the things that was hard for me in my own psyche. Right? So, to extrapolate on that, for people who have completely different circumstances, I would say think about what habits you have created as a young child, as a result of your circumstances. It can be something that you do. It can also be a belief that you've formed about yourself, other people, or the world and we call these schemas. And how that has shaped the way that you engage with people, the decisions that you make every single day. And if you can recognize, if you can kind of tie it back to that early decision that you made or that interpretation that you created in your brain as a child, that now you kind of filter information through as an adult, you can see that there's an entry point for you now to come into this and decide to do it differently. So, what's not working for you? Can you trace that back to the origin and then make a decision about where you want to go from here and then figure out that path.

Michael: Yeah, and that applies to everything. I mean that's like very practical and I mean, whether it's the worst experience of your life that you're dealing with or it's something very minor, right? It's about communication, it's about understanding. I think that a big part of it as well is about just the willingness to, like, I think part of it too is like, and I don't know if this was true for you, but I think about from my own perspective, I hated my mother. I hated my grandmother. I hated my stepdad, like with vitriol. I remember being young and I was like, I wish they would just die in a car crash. Right? And that was what I would just think every single day, ‘cuz in my head, as a kid, coming through this massively abusive childhood. I always felt like if they're dead, if they were to die, like thank God I'm free, that was what was always in my head, and that carries with you and there is a weight, there's a burden. And I remember one time I was in a therapist's office, of course, this is how it always seems to go right. And I had been in this position where I'd really been moving forward with my life, things had started to transpire and they were shifting and transmuting, and I was feeling really solid. But I still have kind of this lingering hatred that was just like it was weird, it's like in the depths of my f*cking soul. And when my mother died, my little brother called me, I was 24. She died like legless in some hotel because of all the drugs she had done and then she was in like some random hospital, I dunno, it was a very complicated situation. And he calls me and he goes, hey, mom's dead, I go, cool, have a great day and I hung up the phone. And then I didn't end up going to the funeral, that was a decision I had made very young and I said, I'm not going to do that. But what was interesting about it is, I realized as I'm sitting in this therapist's office one day that the vitriolic filling I had for my mother, for my grandmother, for my entire upbringing, that hate that was inside of me, it was actually keeping me from connecting to other human beings at death. Right. And so, I'm sitting there and my therapist said something to me, which I now tell my clients like day one all the time, ‘cuz it was so impactful in my life. He goes, you know, you're not a child anymore, right?  And I remember just being like, yeah, I do know that. And that gave me a sense of permission to step into this identity shift. Right. It was like I can pinpoint four or five massive shifts in the way that I think about the world, and that's one of them.

And so many people, when we are in these experiences of life where we know that there is something inside of us, that is keeping us stuck. What I think is really fascinating is we tend to be okay staying there and what is so unfortunate about that is if you are okay staying there, you tie it into the way that I singularly, the one thing that drives me in my life is what you just said. I don't wanna die with any regret, ever. So I will face every demon, I will unturn every cover, I will do everything that it takes because it really is like, well, will you deal with this sh*t? And until those moments started to transpire, it's like I could not step into freedom in relationships and love rebuild to grow, to be here with you today. And I think that there's such this beautiful power, but one of the things that I find that that typically happens, especially, and this happened to me and happens to people at the beginning, it's like you get a taste of this and it's like, better than crack. I've never smoked crack, but I assume it's better than crack because you start tasting your freedom, your authenticity, your decision-making abilities living in, and then you're like, I want more. I want more. I want more. Right. And then maybe you get a PhD or maybe you become a coach with a podcast like, I don't know, these things happen. How do you navigate at the beginning of this discovery? I have talked to so many people I've coached over the years where we're sitting in a session and I look across from them and I go, Oh, no, no, you're done. We're not coaching right now. Take the week off. You're not allowed to heal this week. Go live because so many people get caught up and then they leave down this path of like, they're burned out on healing. And I'm like, dude, like you're missing the point. So, if somebody is in the beginning and they're like, I'm f*cking overwhelmed, I hear what you're saying, I get it. Like these little seeds start to grow into giant trees, but then I'm out here like harvesting an entire orchard like what do you. Like how do you navigate the start of this?

Sharon: Well, with regards to overwhelm, I always tell people overwhelm is what happens when you're focused on too many things at once, or something that's so big that you are like, I don't even know where to start. And I always liken it too, when you've got too many tabs open on your computer and it just makes the whole system either slow down or crash. And the solution is just work on one tab at a time, right? I mean, even if you've got 15 tabs open on your computer, you can't do all the things at one time, so, start with one thing. And that helps people to just focus and not have to worry about all the things. So even if it's one big project, break it down into the steps and then just focus on step one, don't worry about the other 14. Right?

Michael: Yeah. But I want to be held now, Sharon.

Sharon: Well, we haven't created that magic pill yet, so we'll get back to you when that happens but I mean, yeah, listen. We are a new generation, with technology and everything else, like it feeds into that of like its instant gratification. However, it did not take a minute for you to get to where you are in terms of your trauma and your wounds and all that stuff, and it's not going to take a minute to get out of it, it's a process. And I always tell my clients like, even if you've had years of trauma, let's say it's 10 years, it's not going to take 10 years to undo it necessarily, but the opposite is also not true. It's not going to take one session, right? So, it's kind of like somewhere in between there and depending on the kind of therapy that you do or the kind of modality and how much work you put it into it and all that, you'll get there. But we have to be realistic just like with anything else, you're not going to get results like that because that's just not how things work. However, I will say there are amazing therapeutic modalities that have accelerated the results for specifically healing trauma. So, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with EMDR, that's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, that is one technique that for people who have singular traumas, like I was in a car accident, or I went to a dentist and I was traumatize or I had somebody break up with me in a really crash way, whatever it is, right? If there's something that is like a singular incident that can truly help if it's kind of a long stemming trauma, it can help with an incident at a time, but it's not going to necessarily change all of it, right?

If you've had like, abuse for eight years of your childhood. You can't like fix it like that. But it is great for all those other things, and that's huge because I mean, I've had clients who have overcome distress levels of 10, out of 10 in as little as 15 minutes. Right? And so these modalities are being developed and I think that is, the next best thing to instant gratification, ‘cuz that doesn't really exist, I mean, but it does work really quickly. And I would say anything that utilizes the body is a way better approach to managing the recovery from trauma than anything that starts in your brain. Right? Because our brain is just so fixed on the way that it thinks about things and we've got these beliefs and it's just like a lot harder to move that than it is to tackle from the bottom up, which is your emotions, right? If you can move the energy through the body, it actually just works a lot faster and you can bisect the mind like you cannot have to go through all the thoughts, you can just kind of have the energy kind of transpire, which is a beautiful thing.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah. So true. And I think that also just going to the beginning because it is like these little bits and pieces you chunk away at, it's these nuances, it's like if you understand that the relationship with time has to be adjusted and if you can give yourself the freedom from leveraging this journey as into if, then when like, oh my God, there's so much freedom in it because it's like I still have sh*t, like I woke up the other day and I was like, f*ck, I'm still dealing with this sh*t from 25 years ago. I've been to therapy. I've done EMDR, I'm like the guy, and I still have it, like it's still a part of it, there are still these moments. I think one of the things people get lost in, I mean, there's probably still moments where you have resentment towards your mother. Right. And it's like in the nuance, but you notice it, you bring attention to it, you recognize that that's actually not your being, it's not your organism, it's like your brain ‘cuz your brain is like, yeah, don't you remember that one time? And you're like, shut up brain. You don't understand like, the life that I'm in right now. You know, it's funny, I had Dr. Caroline Leaf on the show, I don't know if you're familiar with her.

Sharon: Yeah. She was on my podcast as well.

Michael: She's an incredible human being. And I told her, I was like, you know, I have this theory that your brain is a liar.

Sharon: Totally. Hundred percent.

Michael: And I just sit here and I think to myself, the reason why we often get pulled back into those old emotional states is that our brain is looking for supporting data like it's that whole, you will go and find what you're looking for. And so, if you still want to be mad about sh*t from 30 years ago, guess what? Oh my God, I remember when Tommy stole my shoe and f*ck that guy. I hope he got hit by a car. Right? And you're like, but wait a second, that's not logical, that's just your brain being an a*h*le.

Sharon: Well, it's kind of like, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but I remember when I became a parent and all of a sudden…

Michael: I have not had that experience.

Sharon: No, I know you haven't. But I'm saying something like this, right? Where all of a sudden, I started seeing strollers everywhere. And I'm like, is this new? I'm like, no. It's the fact that I wasn't paying attention to it. But now that I have a stroller for my child, I am seeing other people with stroller for their child or if it's like if you got a new car and it's red, all of a sudden you see like lots of red cars everywhere, you know, it's that sort of thing. So, I think your brain is looking for patterns and if you already have an existing pattern, it is going to look for support for that pattern. Which is why it's really important to have self-awareness, like what is my brain doing? And to be able to challenge all of the stories that it's coming up with because yeah, your brain often does lie to you, it's not necessarily sharing with you real data that is helpful, or that's even true, and so you have to ask those questions. This is the thought in my brain, is that true? This is the thought in my brain isn't hopeful for me to think about it this way? Because often the answer is going to be no. And if you can figure that out and then find an alternative thought to describe the circumstance that you're in or to think about or interpret the situation, you can change how you feel and the consequent behavior you can say to yourself, yeah, I mean, I can stay pissed off at Tommy. But that's only punishing me because now I'm carrying around all this resentment, and as they say, resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. So, we're just carrying all this stuff around thinking like, oh, I can't release that because I'm going to let Tommy get away with what he did. So, we have this justification of why we're holding onto it, but in reality, Tommy doesn't even know or care what you're carrying around, you're the one that's feeling it.

Michael: And I think the hard part about that too, and this is the part people don't truly understand, I think it's twofold. One, most of the time people don't even understand that we're upset about them about something. And two, which is actually I feel like to be probably more of the stronger sides of these two points is that we often, as the people who have had the negative interaction or the experience filling the shame, guilt or the resentment towards other people don't recognize that when we are trying to seek solace from them or closure, like you're just not going to get it, and we hold on so tightly. And we're like, don't you understand my pain? Like, can't you recognize that thing that you did hurt me so devastatingly bad? And it's like, and I don't know about you, but it's like you pause and you look at this and you go, I want so desperately for you to understand why I'm pissed off at you. But at the same time, I've come to realize, and I think this is the healing journey I've come to realize you cannot have that expectation of other people.

Sharon: I mean, you can have it, but it's not very helpful. And I think that's what keeps people stuck. And I actually deal with a lot of medical professionals who are burned out, as you might imagine, and they're carrying a lot of resentment. Right? And they're resentful of the system, they're resentful of their patients, they're resentful of, you name it. And resentment actually is oftentimes tied to burnout, right? So, we're talking about these kinds of issues, we're talking about how this isn't helpful and that there's different ways that you can manage this situation, but if you are going to hold onto this, you're only hurting yourself.

Michael: Okay. I want to go on to something that made me think of something, right? So, you have a PhD, you're a psychologist, you understand the human brain arguably better than most people, how in the h*ll is that tied to burnout?

Sharon: The brain?

Michael: Like, how are those expectations? How are the things that we put on us, like, how is that tied to burnout? ‘Cause like I think I understand where you're going, but I want to get into the breakdown of it so we can really help people navigate this because burnout here we are like, this is such an interesting conversation to me because when we look at it, it is such a buzzword right now, and sometimes I don't know if people are really truly burned out or if it's just like they're overwhelmed and they need a break or if that's the same thing or if it's not. And so, like how do this experience of life, like if you connect all the dots, right? Obviously, I'm going to assume at some point in your life you faced burnout and you're like, okay, here's the solution, I think I figured it out. Let me go help people. What are those dots that we need to be connecting about our experiences, our stories, our identity, and our past that lead down this path?

Sharon: So, before I answer that question, I do want to just state for the record that people often have that assumption because pretty much every other burnout coach I've ever met has had burnout, figured it out, and then became a burnout coach. And actually, that's not my journey, it was a little bit different, it was actually like an intentional avoidance and it was an intentional expertise or niche as a coach that I chose. So, a little bit different, but I want to come back to your original question about expectations. Expectations are stories that we tell ourselves about what other people should do. And so, what happens is then the person does whatever they do, and sometimes it aligns with our expectations, and other times it doesn't. And when it doesn't, the thought that pops up into our heads is, well, Johnny should fill in the blank, right? Johnny should email me back. Johnny should respond more quickly. Johnny should offer to take me out as a thank you for the favor that I did him, you know, whatever it is. There is some sort of a should statement in our brain because that aligns with that expectation. Like, yeah, I did a favor for Johnny, I expect him to say thank you at the very least. And if Johnny doesn't do that, I've got this thought now in my head, and I always tell my clients, if you've got a should statement, how else are you going to feel other than disappointed, frustrated, or resentful? That's the automatic breakdown, right? When you have somebody should do something and they didn't, you will be disappointed, frustrated, or resentful, there's no other way about it. You're not gonna be excited, it just doesn't align. So, there is the systematic kind of drip down process between how we think about things, how we feel, and then what we do and the results that we create in the world. And so, we have to be very careful about our expectations because they feed into the story of what should be, and that creates stress in our lives. And if you think about what burnout is, burnout is just chronic stress. So, if I work for an organization and I think that my organization shouldn't overload me with work, or should provide me with more resources, or should acknowledge me for all the amazing things that I'm doing, and those things don't happen, I start feeling resentful towards my place of work. And that stress inside of me, that negativity just festers day in and day out, and it builds and it goes from being this acute thing that happens because of this event and that event and this other event, to now becoming this cluster of resentment that becomes burnout because it's chronic now. Now it's not like you did this one thing, but this is like every day, and I hate it here and it sucks and you guys’ suck. And I wish I wasn't here and that's why so you're seeing so many people resigning and quitting and doing all these things going on sabbaticals, reinventing themselves because everybody's like miserable at work. Right? And I think a lot of times it comes back to number one, your expectations and number two, how you're managing stress. ‘Cuz stress is inevitable, but it's how we cope with it that matters.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that's very true. One of the reasons that I am less stressed than I've ever been, even though I work harder than I ever do is that I have just honestly just become a massive nihilist, like I've just tapped into that side of me that it's always kind of been there, but over the last couple years I've just been like studious of it. I'm like, none of this actually matters. At the end of the day, like, think of a serious question, name your great-great grandpapa.

Sharon: No clue.

Michael: Exactly, that's my whole point. And we get so tight up. One of my really close friends, like great friends, he talks about this a lot. And I remember I was having, we were at this place in Vegas, at this event and we're chatting with each other and I was like, dude, I never heard anybody talk about nihilism like you do. And this is the way that I felt my whole life so, I'm just gonna take all this and run with it now cause like, you gave me permission because like the thing that has given me the most freedom that keeps me from burnout is like I just don't care that much about like the outcome. I only care about this moment. And it's funny ‘cuz like when I was on your show, I was telling you I'm getting ready to take a break and I'm going to clear my schedule at for a week and it end up being 10 days. And I was like, all right, and like yesterday was the first day I've worked in like 10 days.

Sharon: So, wait, I just want to say two things. One is, I just had somebody on my show ‘cuz you just said this thing, and this is kind of like what she said and we kind of coded it as this quote, like you said before, something that I wrote down because I was like, Ooh, that's a keeper. You said, you know you're not a child anymore, I think that is like one of those things that you can keep coming back to? Well, she said she had her therapist say something, or I don't know where she got it, but her kind of tagline is, I care, but not that much. And I was like, oh, that's good because I think part of the reason, we burn out is because we just care too much about stuff that we don't have control over. And then we get all into the drama in our heads about what it means and what it should be and expectations and all this stuff and it's like if you take your stance on it of like, it doesn't really matter that much, right? Or is it going to matter in six months from now? Am I going to remember this even, right? We'll be able to let go of so much of the things that we hold onto that create that resentment in the first place. And the other thing I wanted to say is that, as a reflection, you have brought up the word freedom more times than any other word in today's episode, and I don't think that's by accident. I think as an entrepreneur, freedom is the biggest gift that we give ourselves. Yes, we work harder than we probably would for anybody else. And we do things that we probably wouldn't do if somebody paid us a salary, but we do it ‘cuz it's a work of love. And on the other side of that, there is all kinds of freedom, and that's my word too, that's why I noticed it. I noticed that you keep saying that, so I just wanted to point that out.

Michael: Yeah. Well, I mean, I got really lucky being a 20-year-old working for a Fortune 10 corporation in America. Like, I saw people who had they clocked in, clocked out for 30, 40 years, they made the paycheck, they wore the khakis to work, they had the convertible and they hated themselves. And I was like, I don't want that, you know, and so now we're, I'm heading into now 13 years of entrepreneurship and trust me, it's been hard. You get it. It's very, very, very difficult. But I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know? I know we're running out of time here, but I want to touch on this ‘cuz I think it'd be important ‘cause I know there are a lot of people who listen to this show who are entrepreneurial and we are facing a mental health crisis in entrepreneurship right now where we have a lot of entrepreneurs who are addicts, who are popping Adderall like it's their job, smoking weed, getting drunk every single day, coping with the stress of it. We have entrepreneurs who are killing themselves at a higher clip than almost any other industry in the world right now. We have entrepreneurs who their relationships are getting destroyed, their finances, they're self-sabotaging and it's like, it's this f*cking chase like they're seeking and they're trying so desperately to go be the next Bezos, the next whatever, and I'm just like, you know, we actually started a entrepreneurship support group for Think Unbroken, where every Tuesday we meet with entrepreneurs so that they can f*cking talk about this stuff. And I believe that it's burnout that's leading to this, it is the stress that is leading to this. And look, if you work for a company, I know you face it too, but I'm just looking at this through the scope of entrepreneurship for a moment so, bear with me. What do we do? How do we protect ourselves? How do we keep ourselves safe right now?

Sharon: I mean, there are so many layers to that question. It doesn't start with burnout; it starts before that. Right. So, you said number one, they're seeking, and I think it starts there. We are programmed by our culture, by our society, by all these expectations that we are raised with and what we see other people doing to be driven to achieve, to get that convertible or the big house or the big paycheck, the promotion, the title, all of these things. And I think what that does is it creates this idea of I am worthy only when I've achieved these things. Right? And that sets you up. You will never be happy if that's your model and that is the model for most people.

So, when I see people that are burned out that are what I call the doers, right? These are folks who are focused on their to-do list while they're putting themselves on that back burner, which means that they're prioritizing getting things done even when they're falling apart, because that gives them a sense of worth then you are really at risk for burnout. And what happens is, as we said, burnout is a result of chronic stress, so it's not an overnight thing, you are pushing and striving and doing constantly day in, day out. Now you've got all the stress that you're accumulating throughout the day, throughout the week, throughout the month, throughout the year. What are you doing to manage that stress? Often, they don't have really good tools and strategies. So, they're looking for that quick, fast thing that's going to help 'em, just like you asked for earlier, right? We don't wanna feel it. So, what do we do? We look to numb it. We look to distract ourselves. We're doing all these things that give us these dopamine hits, whether it's the drinking, the gambling, the shopping, the netflixing, whatever it is, we are engaging in activities to help take our mind off the stressor and to help just calm ourselves down. Right? And people always say, oh, I just need that glass of wine after work because I just need to chill out. And there are lots of free very accessible tools that people can substitute for these kinds of behaviors but you have to be willing to do those things. And sometimes it's just easier to numb out and do the thing that is going to shift your state instead of you taking control and shifting it for yourself. Right? So, I think it starts from how we are set up in terms of our framework that we are focused externally instead of internally that we don't know how to cope with stress, and we're looking for that quick fix. And then we get to a point where not only are we burned out, but now we've got the addiction or we've got the mental health challenge on top of it ‘cuz we're depressed, we're anxious, we're traumatized, we've got all these things that are add-ons, right?

So, people come to me when they're already at that stage of burnout and what I have to do with them is help rewind the tape to remember how this whole thing started when you were externally focused, now we're going to work on turning the focus inward, and that's how you get out of this whole paradigm, we're gonna shift all of the focus to, what are your needs? How do you set boundaries? How do you communicate what you need? How do you, no one to cut off from work? How do you be present with your family, with your friends, with your loved ones? How do you speak to yourself when you've failed, when you've made a mistake, when you're disappointed? How do you manage all these emotions? Right? How do you change your thinking? That's the work.

Michael: That's beautiful. I know we're out of time. We could definitely go longer, I know we're gonna have to have you back. But with that said, thank you for that, I think that's powerful and people need to take a step back and really acknowledge the reality of the world that they're in, not the reality of the world that they want to be in because I think if you can do that and you, you go, wait a second, what am I actually doing here? Am I chasing fulfillment or am I chasing a Lamborghini? Because you're going to have a very, very different experience. Are you chasing love and compassion and joy in building a family? Or are you chasing, like being a social media star? Like, what are you really doing? Because those matters, that level of clarity is everything. For those who wanna learn more about you, to listen to the podcast, to even work with you, where can everyone find you?

Sharon: The easiest thing is to go to my website; I've got links to the podcast. I've got a blog; I've got free resources; I've got everything you could possibly want related to burnout so that is drsharongrossman.com very easily.

Michael: And of course, guys, go to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com. We will put all the links and more in the show notes for you. Sharon, my friend, my last question what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Sharon: To me, it means believing in yourself because being broken is just a state of mind, it's just a story that you've told yourself, and if you believe in yourself, you will figure out how to get your life in order.

Michael: Brilliantly said. Thank you so much my friend. I appreciate you being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you for listening. Please check us out on YouTube, Spotify, and iTunes. And remember, every time that you rate, review or share this podcast, you're helping us in generational trauma, transform trauma to triumph, turn breakdowns to breakthroughs, and helping everyone become the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time.

My Friends, Be Unbroken.

I'll See You.