Carolin Hauser - SEX Trauma and Attachment Styles | Trauma Healing Coach

Michael: Hey! What's up, Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you with another episode with my guest, Carolin Hauser, who is a German trained psychotherapist, and someone I've been looking forward to speaking to on the show for a while now. How are you, my friend? What is happening in your world today?

Carolin: I am very excited to be here, so very good. I've been looking forward to this too.

Michael: Yeah. You know, one of our mutual friends sent over your information to me and they're like, Oh, you know, this is a person to be on your show. And I'll tell you just forthrightly, I get so many of those requests every day and 99.9% of them, I'm like you know, and that's not disrespect to anybody, it's just the nature of the show. And I came across to you and I was like, Okay, cool, finally somebody that I can go into deep conversation around attachment styles, bonding, sex, and all of the things that we don't generally talk about just in society in general, especially in America. And I'm very excited to have this conversation with you. So, before we dive in and we go into the crux of all of this, give us a little bit of background tell us about your story, your interest in this, what has driven you here, and how you got to where you are today.

Carolin: Yeah. My story is a little bit out of the box because I literally remember being up in heaven on the heavenly meadows maybe as an angel or a light being that I don't remember. And just hanging out there and God coming by and saying, Hey, we have problems on earth, men and women don't get along, who can help? And my hand just lifted itself and it gave me a free ticket into my mom's belly. And then of course, you know, when you raise your hand to volunteer and come and help on the earth, it would make a lot of sense that like I would've been born or that I was born into a family actually that had a lot of back trauma. So, I was born into a family in Germany where eight of my great grandparents, well four out of my eight great grandparents didn't survive World War II. So, my grandparents, half of them were orphans and then my parents, their parents were hugely traumatized because they grew up without their parents and then there came I, in a sense. And I had a really pretty good childhood and then started struggling tremendously with myself and my relationship with food. I had eating disorders from the age of 10 till 20, and nothing really helped. And my parents tried everything, they put me, you know, to regular therapy, they sent me to art therapy, they went to events where there were Buddhist monks so that I could get blessed and just nothing, nothing helped. And then finally, like in my late teens early, I had kind of like a wake-up moment, I had eaten too much food again, and part of how I would make myself throw up basically, I would use a toothbrush and the toothbrush got stuck in my throat. And my mom for years would've said, you know, if you don't stop this, if you don't stop this, because she meant well, right? She wanted to kinda like scare me into stopping. She would say, Oh, you're gonna just end up like Mama Cass, and you're just gonna end up dead on the bathroom floor. And in that moment when the toothbrush got stuck, it wasn't funny. You know, now it's maybe funny, but I just thought it was over. And a lot of grace happened in that moment also because for some reason something inside of, we shifted and something was more willing than ever to find healing and within a week or so, my mom introduced me to family Constellation work, which ended up being kind of the saving grace and it's the modality that I use now. So, that's just the part of my story, and I'll share maybe a little bit more as we get into it but that's how I got into the work that I do now, basically.

Michael: Yeah. You know, it's really interesting because I think that unfortunately, as it may be, without those traumatic rock bottom moments, often we do not change. And I'm happy that you survived because that's pretty gnarly. So, what started happening? So, you get into looking at this aspect of life, you say, you know what, something has shift. You start to honor it. Well, what's the journey to getting deepen to being like, like to become a psychotherapist, especially German trained psychotherapist like there is work involved. And so, what inspired that and what led you down this path?

Carolin: Yeah. It was actually really funny because I was pretty lost in my early twenties and so I literally just had one family constellation sessions and within a three months period, the eating disorders just went away. And I met with my friend and we got talking and he's like, how are you? And I'm like, well, I healed myself from the eating disorders. And he's like, I've known you for like a long time and you've struggled with this for a long time, and all of a sudden, you've healed yourself like that makes no sense like, how did you do this? And I hadn't put two and two together, you know? I just thought like finally I just healed myself and I started thinking and backtracking and realizing, Oh, I had this one experience and ever since then I've been able to do things that I've never been able to do. And then he said, well, if you have found a way to heal yourself, because my survival statistics were at 5% my chances of living to be 30 were at 5%, so very small chance. And because I was so lost and he's like, Dah, it's like right in front of you. You just have to make this your life’s; I just literally spent my twenties exploring this modality traveling. I spend what people spend on a down payment on their house on just healing, basically, you know, and figuring this out. And also, at the same time, I did have this really strong sense of purpose that I was here to help myself, heal this relationship stuff so that I could have good relationships because my relationships were, I mean, they were held basically for the most parts and a lots of, you know, rollercoaster and all of that. And so, it was my own desperation and then my friend just kind of kicking me into it and just the sense of like, this is my purpose that kept me going.

Michael: I think sometimes you need a friend to kick you in the ass, you know, to help you drive forward, because o often the people around us, they see stuff that we don't see and I think that's so incredibly important. And so, as you got deeper into this work, what started to shift your narrative, or at least your interest into talking about things like attachment style, sex bonding, all of that aspect of the human experience?

Carolin: Yeah, so all my life I knew that there was something wrong because the eating disorder started at the time in my life where it wasn't obvious, you know, there was nothing obviously happening. My parents did get divorced when I was 11, but the eating disorder started way before, so it never made sense why they had started before then. And so, what my own story was that I knew of some sexual abuse or I consciously remembered sexual abuse in my teenage years, but I didn't remember anything earlier, it just always felt strange that my eating disorder started when they started, because like I said, there was nothing obvious connected to it. So fast forward, in my late twenties, I had my first child, my daughter. And in my early thirties, she turned three; when she turned three, I started having memories of my own early sexual abuse.

And so, my childhood sexual abuse started when I was three. So, with my daughter turning three, these memories started coming back. At that point, I had already done so much healing work, you know, I'd already worked with clients and it really hit me and came as like not complete surprise, but it did take, took me out for a summer and really confused me. And so that's kind of what really shifted me in the direction of, well, I really have to heal this within myself even more and then obviously like just constant trouble with men and relationships and me just feeling like it shouldn't be this hard, it should not be this hard to have a peaceful relationship, and I should find a way to be peaceful with men and feel safe in not just in sex, but all around, now that I look back, I know kind of why I was reactive or overreacting and things like that. But back then when I was in it, you know, I just was just being me in a sense, not knowing that, you know, these deeper trauma triggers were still there.

Michael: Yeah. And I think that's super common for people, they don't recognize it, right? We're so disconnected and disassociated from the sexual experience, a lot of that because we have, and I include myself in that had sexual trauma as a kid and some people, just because of the vast amounts of abuse, they don't really understand or know how to navigate it. You know, one of the things that really started to change for me, and I don't know if this held true for you, in terms of just understanding like the dynamic in dating relationships and sex was looking at an understanding attachment styles. And I don't know if that held true for you, but it changed everything for me.

Carolin: Yes, for me too. And actually, you know, you would think that I would've come across the attachment styles like way like long time ago. I came a lot of other things way before the attachment styles, but when I came across, I think it was, I'm your Levine's book, it just put all the puzzle pieces together, you know? Yeah, it was a game changer and it also helped me like finally date in a better way, where now, you know, I'm in a stable and secure relationship.

Michael: Yeah. I totally resonate. Define and break down the attachment styles for us ‘cause I know people listening probably have no idea what we're talking about.

Carolin: Yeah. So, attachment styles are connected to survival strategies that we develop as babies. And generally, there's three and then a mix out of them. And all of us, we kind of like, depending on the situation, we're not just purely one or the other. Generally, the three major categories are secure, avoidant or anxious. The secure attachment style is developed the baby, when the experience of a baby is, or if you're the baby, when your experience is that you cry or you need something and there is somebody that's tuned in and healthy in and available enough to you to help you figure out what you need and give you a sense of like, that you matter and your experience is just that generally your needs are getting met and if they're not getting met, you as a baby can make sense of why not, because maybe you can see that the mom's not available right now or you know, like there's enough context for you to make sense of your world. And so, your nervous system and your brain develops in a very relaxed and healthy way. And as an adult and you become very resourceful, you are able to use your brain very differently than some of these other attachment styles because your nervous system and your fight or flight are mostly at ease in a sense. Then with the anxious and the avoidant attachment style for the anxious baby, the experiences that sometimes the caregiver is there and sometimes not, and to backtrack as a human being, we need at least one or two people, we call it like a stable base that's there for us, so that we can develop correctly. And also, I mean, literally as babies, you know, we are totally helpless if we don't have that because of, you know, we can't talk, we can't do anything for ourselves for a long time compared to other, like mammals and so forth.

So, for the anxious baby, the caregiver, sometimes there's, sometimes not and what that does to the baby is it gets very hyper vigilant. Meaning that the attention of the baby is not in itself, it's on this other person and trying to figure out what do I as the baby have to do to make sure that this person takes care of me. Right. So, you always have to kind of be a step ahead, it's not relaxed, it's very you have to be very diligent. Your experience is not that it's easy for you to get your needs met at the experiences that you constantly have to do something right, or else something bad happens, kind of a thing. And obviously, you know, it could be that the mother or father, whoever the caregiver is, that they're mentally unstable, it could just be that they're in and out of the house because they have to work or there's other children is not necessary just because abuse, you know? But something causes the caregiver not to be present all the time, and therefore the baby never knows, never knows what he can count on in a sense. And so, that somebody who goes to that as an experience as a baby, their nervous system automatically from the beginning is way more set up in a kind of an alert state, not relaxed, because they're always having to look for this other thing and making sure this other thing is there and they're doing what this other thing wants, you know? So, that's where the anxiety kind of comes from then with the avoidant baby. The avoidant baby's experiences that most of the time either it's alone and nobody's there to really even be attentive for an orphan or you know, or like severe and neglect and because of that, the subconscious conclusion that that baby makes is that the safest way for survival is to not attach at all to anything and to just kinda like be self-attached and do everything by themselves. And in general, you know, American culture kind of idolizes that attachment style, right? It's like you're almost raised to be independent and not attached to somebody, which is really not healthy for us because we as human beings and as a species thrive when we're interdependent, when we're healthy, connected, right? Not codependent, but healthy, connected. Is that helpful?

Michael: Yeah. And that's really important and it is. I mean, think about this if you live in the United States and you live in a neighborhood or you have a neighbor in an apartment, name three of them. I dare you. You know what I mean? And it's really interesting that we are so disconnected from that aspect of reality. And so, I thank you for breaking down the attachment style, I think it's really important. And I think people listening maybe like, Oh, I think I might fall into this bucket or that bucket or maybe all three. Are there correlations between them? Do you find that typically one person is just cut and dry, like boom, you're this style, and if you are a certain style, are you able to change?

Carolin: Yes. So, generally, we all can be all of them. Generally speaking, men tend to be a little bit more avoided women tend to be more, a little bit more on the anxious side. But that's, you know, there's also enough men who also have the anxious and there's enough women who also have the avoidant detachment style. The beautiful thing about the attachment styles, unlike some other subconscious programs, they can change and there's things that we can do as adults that are actually not that hard to change these attachment styles. And part of it is like just knowing about them and understanding them and then there's things that we're gonna talk about that have to do with bonding, that can actually shift these attachment styles. So, and then also, you know, some of us we might have had a really secure attachment as babies and then something happens in life so, they can change also through trauma later in life that you become more avoidant or more anxious.

Michael: So, as you go through it, how do you shift? Because I think people, you know, if you're two people in an anxious attachment style, or if you're two people and one of you is avoidant, one of you is anxious, or one of you is secure and one of you are avoidant, like it kind of creates chaos, right? So, let's go into the practicality of this because I think it's really important. So, what are the things that people can do? Cause ultimately, I think you would agree the best case scenario is being in a secure attachment style, Right? Relationship not only with yourself, but with other people. So, what are the things that people can actually be doing to move towards creating that secure attachment style in their life?

Carolin: Yeah, I mean, the first thing is really understanding which one you are. The worst mix is for an avoidant to be with an anxious those are the relationships that are just super volatile and very painful and really toxic and not healthy because the anxious one always is looking for closeness and for the avoidant one closeness is like suffocating because they never had it and so, in their subconscious it doesn't feel safe. So, even though they do want it consciously, when they get it subconsciously to do something to create fights or push it away. So generally speaking, somebody who is very, very avoidant has a very hard time keeping relationships because they'll always find something wrong too, basically so that they can disconnect, because that's their comfort zone in the subconscious. So, if you're listening and you are somebody who, you know, goes through relationships and always feels like there's something wrong, most likely that's because you have predominantly avoidant detachment style. And so, for you, it will take a little bit more work and I'll get into what that work looks like then for somebody who is anxious because there's nothing wrong with us wanting closeness, right? So, the anxious one maybe wants a little bit too much closeness, but it usually gets triggered by being with an avoidant, if that makes sense.

So, knowing yourself and knowing what you are if you're single ideally helps you recognize what people are better for you and whatnot. So that, as an example for me, and there's tests that you can take free tests on the internet. I have eight scores insecure. I have seven scores in anxious, and two scores in avoidance. So generally, I'm a very secure person. When I get together with somebody who's avoidant, my anxious goes through the roof, you know. So, I had to learn that for me, dating somebody who's avoidant is not a good idea, I had to learn what it looks like to be with somebody or date somebody that's secure. And this is more for the single people in the dating process, you realize who you're with by how you feel, because the tendency with the avoidant person is that they'll start to make you feel better. You're starting to feel bad about yourself. And so, when you start getting into, because you're wanting closeness, right? A secure person, when an anxious and a secure person come together, that the secure person can have compassion for the anxious one and say, Hey, you know, you're being a little clingy right now, and I know you're anxious. What do you need? I can be there for you. There's nothing wrong with you. I know that, you know, you're struggling with anxiety, they can be a secure person can be there generally for an anxious attachment style, right? So, that's why it's good for an anxious person to be with someone who is more securely attached. And so, in the dating process, how you feel with people is the most for anxious one is the most important indicator and really making quick decisions and when you start to feel like somebody's ghosting you or putting things on you, you can be pretty sure that there's somebody with an avoiding detachment style and they're not really good for you. If you're somebody who is avoidant but wants to have closeness, you'll really have to work on communicating and allowing the other person, you'll have to learn to allow the other person that they want that closeness, and you have to learn to really be tuned into yourself and start feeling when you start feeling claustrophobic so that you don't have to start creating fights that you can maybe just preemptively say, you know, I know that I have this avoidant detachment style, and I get very claustrophobic feeling like when things get to close so, maybe in the beginning let's just spend, you know, every other day together so, preventatively. Because over time if you get used to more connection, the part of you that's not feeling safe with connection is gonna come down. So, this applies more to obviously people that are in new relationships or dating or just getting ready to be in a relationship.

If you are currently in a relationship, you're probably either on a roller coaster if you've been longer in a relationship or kind of more like roommates, depending on what's going on, if you're not too new. And in both scenarios, the bonding-based love making that we're gonna talk about hopefully helps tremendously in shifting the attachment styles or you into the two of you, no matter what attachment styles you are into attaching securely to each other.

Michael: And I think a big part of that is the willingness to communicate. And I think going back and doing one of those tests will look, I don't think any test is gonna tell you everything that you need to know about yourself, especially from the internet. But it gives you kind of a baseline, right? It gives you a framework to start understanding what may be true. And I'll say this, if you pop on the internet and you go do one of these tests, be fucking honest, don't try to like game the test. Right. Because you the truth. Right. And people will lie to themselves on the test, I'm like, why are you doing this? It's not gonna help you. So, be honest on the test ‘cuz you'll discover something. Before we shift, because I do want to go into the bonding intimacy conversation, but I think that there is this place where before you can get there, and this why we're having the conversation obviously. But I think that before you can get there, you've gotta be able to understand how to like navigate when you're triggering each other, right? When like you're getting in this place of like volatility cuz it's inevitable like I don't care what kind of attachment style you're in, it's gonna happen like that's just the human nature. And if it's not happening, then you're probably really in trouble if you're never arguing or having as I had learned in my younger days. So, I'm curious, like, as we're in this, so we're like, okay, we're working on attachment styles, we're understanding, we're trying to create space, we're growing, but we're triggering each other still, we're at each other throats sometimes like how do you navigate that in these relationships?

Carolin: Yeah, so I think I'll go back to my story because that was kind of me and struggling, you know, really struggling hard like six, seven years ago and being in a relationship that I thought was my soulmate and feeling so close and then we would have these explosions and it was just heart wrenching. And I hadn't come across the attachment style stuff yet but I did come across something else and that's something else is the main book on bonding-based love making. And in that book, the Woman's Story, the woman who wrote the book, her story was so similar to mine. Relationships would start out great. She had no problems attracting guys and really falling in love and feeling like, oh, this is the one. And then within a few months, or maybe a year or two, things would just totally go south, and she was just not willing to accept that was just the way human relationships warrior. And so, she started looking into ancient texts and neuroscience and basically discovered that we too, we have, and I am going into the bonding ways, love making because it has to do with our nervous system and with our survival programs and with our ability to not get triggered.

So, you know, I always, I never thought that I could be in a place where nothing faces me or nothing triggers me anymore, and living now and being what I know now it is actually possible and it has to do with our biochemistry and neurochemistry. And so, what Marni discover is that we have two programs for love making.

One, the one that we know, which is based on procreation orgasm and kind of biologically really for us to well for the species to survive. So biologically we're programmed to not stay together biologically we're programmed to essentially either get tired of each other or argue so that we move on. And we don't know this, right? We don't know that we have these two programs, so we're just kind of staying stuck, either being on the rollercoaster and getting tired of it or getting tired of the roller coaster, but not tired of each other and just letting sex life go out the window and become like roommates.

Well, the beautiful thing is there is this this other set of hormones that we can help our brain switch into and when we do that, we become actually very, very stable and lighthearted and hear things very differently than when we're in this other paradigm. So, I dunno if this is completely answering questions, but in my experience, there is actually a way to live with each other where you don't fight or argue anymore because you're just in too good of a mood basically all the time.

Michael: Okay, so yeah, notice the hesitancy in my voice. How the fuck do you get there then? Right. People are gonna be like, I'm done listening to this. So, why don't we dive into this and create some deep context and understanding of how we get there.

Carolin: And it really has to do with our brain chemistry. So, and this might be shocking, and it was shocking for me, and the only reason why I didn't hang up, you know, at this point in my life I was desperate. I really, really wanted to find a solution. I was very much a proponent of awesome free, you know, I had finally healed myself. I was finally enjoying sick sober. I finally felt inhibited and I was finally just, you know, having orgasms and it was just awesome, everything was awesome and I felt really liberated. And then this book came along, which said, well, maybe you know the problem where you're having these outbursts with each other, aren't your past traumas is actually your sex life. I'm like, Oh my God, you gotta be kidding me. My whole brand at that point was based around like women's empowerment and living freely sexually and enjoying your sexuality, you know? But Marni basically discovered, well, what she didn't discover it, but she collected the science for, is that when we have an orgasm it is the same in our brain, the same neurochemical stuff happens as if we snorted cocaine or injected heroin.

Michael: Yeah. Not surprise.

Carolin: Yeah. It's the cheapest and most natural way for us to get a massive high, basically.

Michael: And you think about how many times in your life you had sex with someone and then you're like, I feel high right now. Right.

Carolin: And it's not love, you know, has nothing to do with it. I mean, you think it is, you know, for a moment. And it would make sense, you know, if you think from like a biology and nature standpoint, it would make sense that nature made sure that we do this right by putting some super rewarding biochemicals or neurochemicals in our blood streams when we do it. Our brain is just not set up for having that all the time and I personally believe that the early human knew this and they knew to only have sex with orgasm when they really wanted to make a baby and enjoy it, and it was something special. And then the other times they knew how to make love in this other way and this is where, you know, where most people like get very confused and don't understand it and it is hard to understand. Yes. Like, the ideas that orgasm is not good because it makes this explosion in our head and at the same time if you've ever done drugs, you know that after the high comes, the low and it comes bad, you know. So, yes, we're gonna say no to that, but what we're saying yes to is a different kind of high and a different chemical mix that over time makes it so that you know, the moment of closeness or euphoria that you have, when you have an orgasm, you can actually have something similar with your partner all the time. It takes a little while for your brain to get there, but because as human beings we are set up to bond, we also get a chemical reward for bonding. So, we get a chemical reward for procreating, which is a very strong like, you know, fireworks kind of reward. And we do get a much subtler, but much more stable and all around better feeling and much more lasting and sustainable kind of reward from oxytocin, so orgasm is connected to dopamine. Dopamine, and the bonding is connected to oxytocin. So, over time, just like with any addiction, you know, when you're getting off something hard that's been stimulating your brain, heart and something normal will feel very boring for a little while, but once you've made it through that time and it doesn't have to take very long, then all of a sudden, the healthy things, you know, start feeling it, I don't know if you've ever got any, like from fast food to eating healthy or anything like that, it's kind of the same thing really.

Michael: So, for clarity, ‘cuz I still don't think I've put the pin in the board on this. How does this actually happen? What is the actual process if a couple's having conversation, you know, maybe it's moved into this place where they're starting to grow, they're getting comfortable, it feels normal, and then that huge hit is happening, but then they resistance shows up all that like how do you move into this state of bonding that you're talking about? Like, what is the actual process of creating that bond with a partner?

Carolin: Yeah, so I mean, first of all, I think it's just getting the education, knowing that this is what happening with your brain and then kind of making a decision or at figuring out for yourself if what I'm sharing makes sense, if it makes sense to try what you will feel like when you don't have an orgasm. And it's not about having sex with not orgasm, it's about having sex and making love in just a very different way where you don't trigger the urge that you wanna, all of a sudden like, I wanna go now. You know? So, there is bonding queues that are built into our biology and psychology that when we practice these with each other they create a bond. So, it's a very, very much like a physical practice that you have to do together and not just once, it's almost like you're building a muscle together when you skip a couple days, you go back, you know, and you have to rebuild the muscle. And you get more sore because you didn't do it consistently, in a sense So, in our life, what it looks like is that in the mornings we wake up and we practice the bonding cues in the evenings before we go back, we have times that aside to practice or do these bonding cues and they're like kissing, eye gazing, breathing together. Pretty much everything that you would think is kind of traditional foreplay with the exception that generally when we have traditional foreplay, we do it to turn each other on. So, it's not what makes oxytocin flow and what makes the bonding work is generous, affectionate, comforting touch. So, it's not so much about like where you touch and what you touch, it's more about where you come from when you're touching, because the amygdala, that's kinda like the protector in our nervous system that tells us if something safe or not, can read energy and is very tuned into what's coming at us. And if the amygdala feels like, oh, somebody's just touching us because they want something from us, it will stop bonding because you know, you don't wanna bond with someone who just wants something from you, if that makes sense.

Michael: That makes perfect sense. And so then especially if you have an anxious or avoid an attachment style, it probably makes that connection incredibly difficult. So, I just wanna reiterate what you're saying to make sure that we have clarity here. So, this sounds to me like a big way of creating and stepping into these bonding queues are touch, eye gazing, probably things like hand holding, being close to each other, it's not always about actual sex, it's about all of the things. My brain when you were saying that I went to, Okay. Yeah. When you're like 14 and you have a crush on somebody you do those sweet things. Is does that feel congruent?

Carolin: Yes. It brings you back to your innocence in a sense. And it's just super refreshing but it also makes it so that your bodies will get turned on naturally without having to use any other stimulation. You know, like the idea is to stay away from any kind of physical stimulation, so you're not doing oral sex or you know, rubbing genitals to try to get them turned on like the idea is to really be together in a way where your bodies naturally start just wanting to have sex. And then when you do have sex also, you know, it doesn't always come to that point, but it often it does and then that's fine too.

Michael: Yeah. And so, you're not necessarily saying like, don't have sex for two years. So, you're saying that place, and it's more about the experience of, and I almost hear the word patience in this and like creating that thing together as opposed to just kind of jumping in because you create the longevity of the connection and the relationship.

Carolin: Exactly. One picture I give people is imagine like you're creating this extra little being with your energy with the two of you, right? So, at first, it's like a little bird's egg and you need to put a lot of energy. You need to put a lot of attention, and you need to do these practices that's how you put the energy but this egg keeps growing and growing and growing, and over time, if you keep feeding it through the practices, it becomes a bubble. And then you're enveloped and it, and it carries you and it protects you and that's what makes you feel so safe and so securely attached with each other and really in tune, like that's part of the pleasure is that you become super in tune, your skin becomes super I don't even know how to describe it, but like, when Tim touches me now, it's almost eating a dessert or something, you know, where it just be that that in itself becomes very satisfying things that normally wouldn't be satisfying, you know, because our brains are not used to. It started to become very, very satisfying.

Michael: And so, I don't know if you'll have an answer to this question, but it came up as you were saying, that is how do you balance creating this level and intensity, which is the word I think that applies here really well, this level and intensity of a bond without stepping into codependency in the same way that one would like a drug addiction.

Carolin: Yeah, so because you really, part of learning this is learning to feel when your dopamine kicks in and learning where you have to stop and relax more so that it doesn't, Right. The dopamine is the addictive thing oxytocin like, and also there is a myth around codependency where it is really good to be healthy attached and with the oxytocin connect connection, it's a healthy attachment like we don't have to be afraid being codependent, it's very normal for two people to be in unison and in love, and that is not codependence, right? So, as I have been practicing this, I got to get to experience my brain and my addictive qualities and so when I fall back into like wanting to have orgasms and into the dopamine, I start feeling really tired, I start feeling really drained, there is a price to pay and once you've experienced how you feel in your everyday life, when you have this other thing, you know, because you create this secure attachment, you also feel free and confident to do things in the world that somebody who was codependent never would do. You know, it's an interesting dichotomy maybe where, you know, you're like so close and because you have this secure base in your life now you can fly in other areas of your life, you know, where you normally wouldn’t.

Michael: Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense ‘cuz I think for me, in-real time having this conversation with you, I'm thinking to myself reframe the thought process of chasing the dragon i.e., dopamine to chasing the connection, right? And building oxytocin, which actually makes a ton of sense and for people who grew up like oxytocin can be this really scary experience because especially if you're unused to that level of connection and that level of bond, it makes you actually want to go further away. Right. And until you recognize that it's actually okay and it's safe. But let's say that on one side of the conversation, because I know so many people listening this are probably identifying themselves, you know, avoidant or anxious. And maybe we do have a partner who is secured or maybe that's absolutely the direction that they wanna move into and they're scared to even have this conversation, right? They're like, well, I wanna maybe change the way we have sex, how we build intimacy, how we connect foreplay, the conversations we have the whole night, and they don't know where to start. Like, where's the baseline for like moving this direction?

Carolin: I would say like reading Marni's book, you know, because iit is really like she spent 16 years exploring with us, trying it with different guys that said they were into it and then they didn't stick to it, and then finding your husband and just resonating with him and then practicing with him and then finally figuring it out and bringing so much science. He was a high school biology teacher, so he brought a lot of neurosciences, he had a forum on helping men get off porn addiction. So, together they really put together 300 pages of just science and because when you're trying to do something that's so out of the box. What Marni and I both have found is like the more you can have your logical mind convinced that this is really something good, you know, because when you're in the heat of the moment and you're really sexually attracted to each other, it's gonna be hard sometimes to stop yourself, you know, from going further. And so, the more educated you can be at first, I think that, I mean, in my experience, that's really step one that's where I start with my clients. You know, I make them read the book and then I help them implement these things and then there's things that you can do through, for example, like the family constellation, if you're really hitting up against your attachment styles and where you're always falling asleep when it comes to connecting, you know, like that's one mechanism of how some people protect themselves from connecting or just a tired to do to the bonding behaviors that just literally they can't do anything. It's like at the moment they sit down to do these practices or lay down, it's like a sleeping pill, hit them, right? That's when you can get help from somebody that does family constellations or something like that, really helping you with your subconsciousness. And it's a healing journey, you know, but the beautiful thing is you're on it with your partner and it puts the power back into your hand of repairing something that was broken in your childhood basically, and you can do it together.

Michael: Yeah. I'll reference my experience here especially in my late teens and my early twenties sex was a coping mechanism, right? Now I obviously recognize that now very far removed away from it, and I have found have an immense willingness to, in dating or relationships, forgo that experience and recognizing the impact of the exchange of energy, and oftentimes having to sit in it and go, wait a second, what is actually happening here? Is it because I really want this person or is it because I'm like chasing this orgasm? And I think that, one of the things a lot of people experience, especially in a culture that is so sex positive, which I'm all about is this idea that it's okay to just have sex all the time with all these people. But I found that that did not serve me in any fucking capacity. And so, I'm really curious, what are your thoughts about that when we live in such a sex positive culture when you understand the neurobiology responses to those experiences.

Carolin: Yeah. I mean, for me, I'm hoping that more and also, I do see this, that there's a whole group of younger spiritual people that are really looking for something else, and so it's just education, education, education, and letting people know that there's something different because when I talk to men or women, it's usually not the sex it's really the connection and we just don't know how to create the connection. And for me, I believe that most people get married because they want something sacred, they want something special, they think that that's created by saying yes on that one day, and it isn't, you know. And so, the bonding-based love making is a practice that gives you the daily tool to actually have the sacred union that most people really, you know, if they could just choose, if they could just go to a catalog and say, Hey, this is what I want most people would want this special something with somebody, you know, I believe.

Michael: Again, just thinking about, do you think it's actually detrimental to have lots of sex with lots of partners? Like just from a trauma-based perspective? Because I'm just like laying ring my experience here. You know, the more that I did that and the more that I put myself in those situations, the further removed I felt for myself and the less I felt like I was able to create a secure bond. Like, does that feel like that syncs up with what you understand and the research?

Carolin: Yeah. And I mean, there's no judgment, you know, because if you're somebody who's had a lot of trauma and you're finally a place where you're enjoying sex and you are having experiences and it's part of your healing and learning curve, you know, I had to go through a phase w ere I was totally free and just allowing myself and not judging myself, to come back to like, yeah, but it's really not like, something's still missing, you know? So, even when we make these mistakes or things, I think they help us in coming to a place where we're like, you know, it took a while for me to come to a place where I was single and basically saying, Okay, I am going to date with this, I don't care how the guys react, I'm not gonna cater to them anymore because my experience would be, you know, I would start dating, I would introduce this, but I would've regular sex with them in the beginning, even though I already knew better and I knew Lord was gonna end and they were like, Oh yeah, this sounds nice, but let's just, you know, let's just get to know each other and then if we know if you really wanna be together, then switch I would do this other thing and then we would never be together long enough, you know. So, I had to come to, and it's difficult, you know, as a woman, you're like ongoing on dates and saying, Hey, by the way, if you're really considering dating me, like, read this book first because, you know, I come with this but I had to have, the reason why I'm sharing this story is because I had to have these other more painful experiences before I had a clear boundary in myself where this was a requirement, you know, where I wasn't willing to go the other way anymore.

Michael: Same. I mean, that's why I was like, leaning into that because it was like, at some point I realized like the lack of dopamine from the experiences left me feeling so empty. Right? And I realized I was just chasing something that was unfulfilling. Again, I liken it to drugs so thank you for sharing that and I think it's really powerful. And I think you should have the freedom, go explore, go try the shit you wanna try, figure it out cuz you're not gonna fucking know otherwise. Like you're never going to know if you don't do it. But do it in a way where you're the one in control and I think that's ultimately the thing like, are you in control or are your hormones in control? And like, I think that's a really interesting parlay to have with yourself.

Carolin: You know, just as the last thing as if you're single like you can't do this if you're single. So, while I was single, I would just give myself permission to have sexual experiences here and there because it's too hard not to have the oxytocin and not to have regular sex. So, this really only works when you do have a partner that you want to bond with, where you can have the regular exchanges so that you're actually replacing one thing with another, you know.

Michael: Yeah. And that makes so much sense. This has been a really incredible conversation, I feel like we're just getting into the crux of this though for time, can you tell everyone where they can find out more about you and what you do?

Carolin: Yeah, it's very easy, it's my website my name carolinhauser.com. I have a free training on the website for everybody that goes a little bit more into depth into what you can do to make love last or bring it back if you're in a roommate situation. It's really the best way to connect with me and get in touch.

Michael: Brilliant. And of course, we'll put the link in the show notes for the audience. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be Unbroken?

Carolin: To me personally, it means living the life that I have now and I really owe it to the family constellation and the bonding’s love making where I'm free to be myself. You know, I'm not getting triggered most of the time anymore. I can have a peaceful, loving, connected, playful relationship that's lasting. And to me, from where I was before is a sign that I'm unbroken, you know, I've healed. And it's available for everybody.

Michael: Brilliantly said, I totally agree. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you so much for listening.

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