The Neuroscience of Intimacy: How Trauma Shapes Who We Love | with Dr. David Helfand

Michael Unbroken: I think it'd be fair and easy to say that we live in the most chaotic time in human history to be in dating, relationships, marriage and having sex. Social media is impacting all of our decisions. We are seeing relationships explode upon themselves. I recently saw an unbelievable statistic that almost 50% of people aged 35 to 50 will be single by the year 2030. And we are seeing all of this happen in a world where we have people who are overcoming and trying to heal trauma, attempting to create longevity, healthy, lasting, and plentiful relationships. And I don't know about you, but what I can tell you is in my own personal journey, if I had to be doing this without amazing people guiding me along the way, for one, would be terrified. And that's why I'm super excited to have my great friend David Helfand, on today's podcast to talk about all things dating, relationship, sex, trauma, and more. David, my friend, welcome to the show. 

David Helfand: Thanks, Michael. I'm happy to be here 

Michael Unbroken: So David, I want to jump right into this because I think it's really important to create frame here. Why should anyone listen to today's episode with us? 

David Helfand: You know, the word that came comes to mind is just hope. I think a lot of people that I've worked with and a lot of people that have, um, trauma, that are struggling in relationships can feel like, what's the point? There's no way out. And I really want to instill that there really is hope no matter how much trauma, no matter what your ACEs score is, there is the potential for you to have intimacy. And in fact, some people might be surprised that trauma can lead to deeper intimacy. And so there is a way forward. 

Michael Unbroken: Well, let's start with hope in a world where we now see the balloon pop videos, if you're unfamiliar, a person walks into a room, a set of people get a pop a balloon, whether or not they're interested in them. real life, tinder, swiping on major YouTube platforms where people are just kind of throwing each other away off a first look. And in a world where we are now being told that men don't matter, we don't necessarily need to go in the man versus bear conversation, but we're hearing it all the time in conjunction with this thing about women now having, if a body count is more than three or four they're useless in the society. I mean, dude, it just feels like the core of our human nature and dynamic is just constantly being attacked from every corner. So how do you instill hope in the midst of this to kind of mitigate the chaos that is ensuing? 

David Helfand: Yeah. I mean, if you look at human behavior, everyone is incentivized by something different, right? So corporate America is incentivized to make money. What makes money? Fear, intimidation, manipulation, right? I mean, there's a reason that, you know, your iPhone tries to keep you on as long as possible. And what I've noticed is there's a backlash that is brewing and even very strong in some ways.

I like looking at the alcohol industry for this more young people are quitting drinking or abstaining from alcohol than in modern history. Alcohol was like the thing for a long time, right? You, Hey, let's go get a drink. That was like the first date too. Hey, let's go get a drink. You know? And now a lot of the wisdom is about, well, you should do like a coffee date or a tea date, or a walk in the park, or, you know, things of that nature.

So I think from what I can tell that the pendulum is really swinging, and also it's necessary. I mean, if you look at the research on longevity for humans, the number one factor for how well we age into our older years is about community and connection. And so, mm-hmm. I mean, kind of by necessity, like things have to change right? In some ways. And I think people that, you know, listen to podcasts such as yours, people that are on this like self-help journey of, okay, it feels like something's wrong. And what do I do? Do I quit alcohol? Do I exercise more? Look at my relationships. I think there is a lot of hope there.

And I'll add one more piece that I know people crap on social media and the internet and communities and all that. I've had a number of clients that I work with that said, you know, I found people on Reddit that get me, you know, there's incest groups, there's mutilation groups for people that have gone through horrific experiences. There are almost any group you could think of exists online, right? So yes, there's a lot of chaffee that you have to sort through and, and. Block out and you know, dating, like there's gonna be a lot of terrible dates, but when you find that community, it really is empowering. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. I mean, such a great point. And I think that that's kind of what this has always been about, like creating a space where people can come together and to listen and feel like they're not alone, right? Feel like there's somebody here who kind of cares about them to any capacity, whether or not it's just sitting here and creating content that hopefully makes people's lives different. And I don't even know if I can make people's lives better, per se, but maybe we can make them different. Maybe we can help entice people into the idea that hope is real, because I'll tell you this, David, I'm on your side with this. Like, I am truly and firmly a believer of the opportunity for successful relationships. And I mean, success is defined by the individual, but I also know, and I have had experience of majorly impactful, successful relationships in my life, whether familiar or intimate. And I've also had the opposite, complete, pure chaos. If we put one more stick of dynamite in there, we might blow up the whole world. Right? So I've been on both sides of the equation and you know, one of the things that I think has been really fascinating is the more deep work that I do, the more that I actually am able to touch relationships that are vulnerable and have good communication and are powerful and enlightening and most importantly, fulfilling. And a lot of that has come through, like sitting and, and doing this work. I'm curious how does trauma from, and you're the expert here, this is anecdotal for me. I'm not a relationship expert. Right. But from your experience, how does trauma impact relationships? I mean, especially, and particularly obviously with this show childhood trauma.

I mean, we have abandonment issues, we have neglect issues, we have self-worth issues. A lot of people self-sabotage. I mean, the list goes on and on and on, but what is happening and how does trauma actually impact us? 

David Helfand: Yeah, I mean that's, that's such an important broad and yet specific question all in one, I would say. I think first we need to define some terms here and, and get a better understanding. So we relate to people based on emotions, right? Most people don't enter into a relationship or a friendship, be like a true friendship 'cause they go, oh, well, you know, your eyebrows look really cool or, uh, you know, I love your beard shape, or things like that, right?

There's some subconscious symmetry that humans look for this has been well studied and you know, when it comes to superficial relationships, oh, you like the same beer I like, or you're good at hockey, let's meet up and hang out, right?  But when it comes to deep, intimate relationships, it's about emotions.

But emotions don't give a f*ck about logic or really anything else. They're different areas of your brain. Your limbic system can override your prefrontal lobe very easily. It's designed to do that. And we can talk more about the neuroscience if you want to go into that, but that is kind of how you're wired. So now let's bring in trauma. The way that I like to describe trauma to people is if you imagine an old oak tree or redwood tree in the forest that's been through a natural disaster, at some point you can see the blemish and the rings of that tree if it ever falls down or is cut down. So it stores that traumatic experience inside its trunk. And humans work the same way at the time of development. Whatever you've experienced is stored inside you in some way. And so this becomes in very impactful for a number of reasons, right? That if you have pre-verbal trauma, that means that first of all, talk therapy is probably not gonna go do a good job at getting out of it.

You need more somatic principles and somatic techniques in order to heal. But this also means that when that trigger comes up for you later in life, you might revert back to a pre-verbal state. And so when your partner says, you know, you know, Hey, every time we're in conflict, you just walk away from me, which is really rude.

I mean, sure, yeah, it's rude. But you might be at this point where like you literally don't have access to the words to describe what's going on for you. And so part of what I try to do with couples and as a couple's retreat therapist is to help people have empathy for that first, because if you can have empathy and if you can understand your partner, it creates a space of safety and security and a, and a bond and attachment that allows you to then deepen the relationship and explore what's going on.

And by the way, that in and of itself is often very healing. Most people that have childhood trauma also have attachment issues. And so, you know, there's this idea of an A secure base. So for people that don't know this, uh, you know, what's supposed to happen in childhood is a little infant or toddler or someone is, you know, looking at a, a bee on a flower and they wanna like, you know, grab it. But before they do, they kind of look over at their parents and the parents make a facial expression of like, oh yeah, you know, go for it, or they go like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. And then the infant re reacts according to their parents that creates a secure base. I'm trusting you to teach me about the world, but if you don't have that attachment early on, your intuition can be off.

As an adult, your reading of the room and of expressions can be off. I mean, it can impact such fundamental pieces of, of your interpersonal awareness. And so, you know, we used to think in psychology, well, I say we as in the, the people that were more. How do I say this old school that your attachment was your attachment. Your brain is your brain and you can't change it, that never sounded accurate to me personally, but now we have good evidence that you can change your attachment, you can change your neurobiology, and that there are, you know, relationships are a really good fertile ground to do so. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. That I am living proof that you can change it. I'm not saying that I don't still have my sh*t 'cause trust me, I do. And especially in relationships and especially when things might go awry and especially in moments of deep intimacy and vulnerability, like things show up. Right? I think what becomes a superpower for people, if willing, is to actually have the willingness to go and explore that and to be honest, and to learn, to communicate and say, Hey, look, this experience is that, that we're having is creating this space in me, which I'm reverting back to survivalistic behaviors.

Again, that's a lot of words, right? It's really hard to get to that. It sometimes it's a lot easier to just be like, Hey, when you do that, to me, it makes me feel like this. Right? Even again, a lot of words, but just getting to that place where you can express it is massively huge.

One of the things I'm really curious about is, you know what, when there is a weird, almost like catch 22 esque movement that I see happening in the world, on this one side, there's the conversation which I fully support of be empathetic and understanding. There's the other side, which is based in the reality in which we see that most of the time that doesn't hold true.

And again, this is a broad generalization, but a lot of times that doesn't hold true, that people have the ability to actually do that. And what we see is instead of people being empathetic and understanding, they take that information and they use it as fuel against the other person because what they have is the expectation that their partner's supposed to be perfect.

And so I'm really curious, like if someone let's have this example. If someone is in a relationship with someone that other person has had traumatic experiences or there's someone listening and they're in a relationship and they have traumatic experiences and we hear this thing about empathy and understanding, but from a practical perspective, we don't know how to implement that into our lives. What does that actually look like? 'cause there's so much talk about it, but no one explains it. 

David Helfand: Yeah. I'll give you two words, genuine, curiosity. So I have found that, let me give you an example. 

I had a couple that I worked with a few months ago that voted opposite in the election, the last several elections, as you're well aware, politics has become very polarized and so they were immediately going to, I like this concept of an emotional judge and an emotional scientist, which is mark bracket's work at Yale, and he's just phenomenal researcher. So the emotional judge is, well, I can't believe you think that you're an idiot.

I'm smarter than you, you were raised wrong. This is your trauma talking. This isn't your rational self. It's all that judgment. Right? The scientist is So, you see the world different than me. I wanna understand how, I might not agree with you, maybe I don't even get it right. But I'm trying to understand, and I think you can apply this in both directions. I'll assume for the moment that, and I don't know the division of your listener's politics, right? But let's kind of take what tends to be a contrarian perspective that somebody voted Republican and their partner is like, how could you possibly do that? It's a misogynistic group and I don't understand.

So part of what we got to in that session for this couple was he was listening to various sources, not just Fox News or Breitbart or all this, but like a lot of different news sources 'cause he was really trying to understand, and the message he was getting is that white men are the devil, right? That we have caused chaos in the world. We are terrible people. And you have to atone for your sins basically. And so as he's listening to this, he's like, listen, that's not the world I wanna live in. And I don't want my kids growing up in that. I don't want my son to be scapegoated. And I can't vote for a party that supports those principles.

Now, you could talk about women's rights, you could talk about civil rights, you could talk, talk about democracy, in his mind, being personally attacked and the safety of his, the future of his kids was far more important than anything else. And when that couple was able to have that conversation and really talk about, well, why is that? Why are you emphasizing certain values over others? And he was able to talk about how he was bullied as a kid, right? His safety was in question for a lot of his younger years. And that, I mean, all these details came out about his life that his wife kind of knew, but wasn't putting all the pieces together. When they had that conversation at the end, neither one of them was swayed on their votes. They're still gonna vote the way they vote, but they had so much more empathy for each other, so much more intimacy with each other. And they're able to walk away from that conversation with kind of a truce in place now.

Michael Unbroken: One of the things that comes to mind as you say that is I think to myself, so many trauma survivors have learned a unfortunately, yet very powerful coping mechanism, which is called ‘don't ever tell the truth.’

And ‘don't ever tell the truth,’ serves them very well for a myriad of reasons. One, maybe it protects them physically, protects them emotionally, or protects them mentally, spiritually, sexually. I mean, the list goes on, right? One of the things that we learned very young is to do anything in our power should not be us, because being us is incredibly dangerous and a lot of the people I've coached over the years, the first thing that I have to work through with them is helping them understand that they don't have to lie anymore. And that's such an incredible mindset shift that many people go through because it's unknown. And yet I will see them. And even this is something I used to experience until I understood it more deeply. I see this path where it's like, I can be honest in every area, business, friendships with my family, everyone except my intimate partner. How do you get to, again, I wanna stay on this idea about this vulnerability and creating empathy in the space for the true para bonding and human connection. what needs to transpire in the space of a relationship for people to actually tell each other the truth. 

David Helfand: Yeah, I mean there are so many considerations in answering that question. So first of all, your nervous system's only job is to keep you alive. Doesn't care about anything else, only wants to keep you alive. And so for people that have had trauma, whether it's big T, little T acute, chronic, complex, simple, whatever kind of trauma you're talking about, there's some lesson that's learned. And for right, wrong or or otherwise, your system goes, okay, something shitty happened. My job is to make sure it never happens again. You know, I was you know, punched in the face by my parents because I told the truth that I broke the lamp, the truth is going to be, put me in a vulnerable state. It's better to lie, right? Again, that's just how your nervous system works. You could make the argument that our systems are kind of primitive based on our current society and culture. That argument has been made in the past as well, but it's what we have to work with.

Now, the next part of this then is about the dynamics within the relationship. So, let's just take lying for example. When I work with someone who's fibbing, which is one of the fight flight, freeze, fawn fib, tendon befriend, those are the kind of full spectrum of stress responses. So fibbing being one of those, well, we have to look at why is that? And both partners play a role in the dynamic of the relationship. And so part of my job when I work with couples, I tell them that your marriage is my client, and you're both contributing to that dynamic. So let me just give you a few examples here. one example is that somebody asks a question and then their partner lies in response. Well, we know from psychological literature that questions can put people on a defensive, and especially if your spouse is law enforcement or a therapist, someone who's designed and trained to ask questions for a living, it can feel really biting in that case. And it could feel really, the potential for exposure is too great that you're just gonna lie to get out of it. You could also have a place where somebody says, well, I'm trying to be open.

I'm trying to be honest, and my partner can't handle it. It creates arguments, so it's better for me to lie. And so one of my questions in that case is what we call projective identification or self-fulfilling prophecy. These are sort of, there's a lot of overlap, although they're technically a little bit different. So the idea being that you have an assumption of the world, you interact with the world in such a way that confirms your suspicions, and then you continue to act accordingly. So this is where somebody says, you know, well, you know, my partner can't handle me. They can't handle my trauma. Well, have you like done trauma work? Are you regulating yourself before you assume that they can't handle you? Right? That would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So those are all the issues laid out. What I recommend as part of the solution is, you know, do the work. If you need to get trauma work, if you need to work on self-regulation, do that work.

So your nervous system can stay calm from a communication perspective, though, I often recommend meta communicating meta communication means to talk about talking. And so, for example, if someone asks you, Hey, you're 15 minute, you know, you're half an hour late to our dinner and I'm wondering where you were, right? If your instinct is to lie, say that I'm really tempted to lie right now 'cause I'm embarrassed. If you can say, if you can say I'm embarrassed, great. If you can go to the emotional place, that's awesome. If you're not quite there yet, that's fine too. So I'm really tempted to lie right now that lets your partner know that you've entered into that fight, flight, freeze, et cetera, response, and that there's something else going on here.

And if you can have that conversation, if you can get into it at that time, fantastic. If you need to go journal about it. If it's safer to write a letter to your partner and expose your vulnerability, fantastic. You know, whatever timeline you need to then address it. Good. But you know, first, breaking that habit of just lying is really important.

The other thing is that if you do lie, because again, changing habits takes time. I usually recommend kind of a truth contract with couples where somebody has 24 to 48 hours to come clean, and that there should be no repercussions during that time. So, you know, you asked me what happened, I lied. I need to confess; I need to come clean. And then we can have a conversation about, well, why did you lie? What were you feeling? What was going on? Because hopefully you've had some time to process it at that point so you can have a meaningful conversation. 

Michael Unbroken: That's a super powerful tool because I think to myself, when somebody is in a massive state of dysregulation, the last thing that they're worried about is the consequence of the action. Right? And it's just so much in it. You don't know that it's actually happening.

I trained myself to stop lying by literally looking at people in like, almost exclusively in the moment that I just told the lie and saying, I'm sorry, I don't know why I did this, but I just lied to you. And it's the most deeply unsettling feeling humanly imaginable to me. But it broke it for me, and it actually became my superpower. But then I will say this, David, the pendulum did swing too far, and it was honest, way too much, uh, to the point that that also became detrimental. So I think that it really is about finding that balance and the right person will give you the space to explore that with them. And hopefully without judgment and without shame and without guilt. And that, and that can be very, very difficult for people because we hate being lied to. Like no one wants to be lied to, but the reality is we all do it. And anyone who says otherwise is a liar. I'm really curious about, you know, we talked about this idea about genuine curiosity, if I can respond to that real quick. 

David Helfand: I think a lot of times the person lying is scapegoated as the problem. And I wanna make it really clear that the relationship is a dynamic between two people just reiterate that 'cause it's really important. So if you ask a question that naturally creates defensiveness where someone who's prone to lying is probably going to lie, and so you need to take ownership as the partner over what kind of environment are you creating in the relationship. Because in order to lie, there's two people involved usually in a conversation, right? I'm lying to somebody or in response to something. So I just wanted to highlight that. I think it's easy to put the work on the other person, but it really is a team effort. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. No, I think that's a phenomenal point because the reality of looking at that is like, as the person being lied to. And if that's something habitual in the relationship, then the question should be like, why is that habitual in the relationship? Oh. Because every single time your partner told you a thing, you reacted a certain way. Like, okay, ownership. God forbid we play that game in this day and age. But it's one of those things that you do have to take.

One of my mentors told me something that I think bodes very well here, and that is that the quality of your questions determines the quality of your life. Sometimes a simple reframing changes everything and, and basic conflict resolution, which we are never taught by the way. It really comes down to how do you ask the question based on moving towards a solution without making people defensive so then that they can actually create a space to create change. And I think that that's one of the things where it's like, fuck, man, why don't they teach us that in school? And of all the b*llsh*t that we learn, that carries no weight. The one thing we don't learn. Is communication dynamics, which is really what you and I are talking about right now. 

David Helfand: Yeah, it's emotional intelligence. And so, I give an answer to that because I have a quick solution for folks. So, if you are tempted to ask a question, the trick is to say what's behind the question. And I can give you a real-life example of this. My wife and I bought a house and in full disclosure, I'm sure her story is different than mine, but my wife and I bought a house several years ago. It was the first house we ever bought before our kids were born. And I was in postdoc at the time and she had offered to cook dinner in the new home. So, and I was like, oh, this sounds awesome. I'm gonna come back from like my first week. We're gonna have dinner, it's gonna be fantastic. I got back, the boxes weren't unpacked, dinner wasn't ready. And so I innocently asked the question, Hey, how come dinner's not ready? And as you can imagine, that did not go over well. Right? I cannot imagine it did. So, you know, my intention though was like, Hey, I was looking forward to this. I really wanted to have dinner in our new home. I wanted this to be like our romantic kickoff to the new place.

You know, I was probably looking to like, have some fun in the kitchen at the same time, right? And like, I totally killed the vibe and destroyed the mood. But what I should have said was, what was behind the question, what was behind the question was all those things I just mentioned? I was really looking forward to this. I wanted to mark this moment with something special between the two of us. I also love that. You know, I'm going out and working on my education. You're supporting me by having a meal ready and like warming me up when I get home. Like all these things that were a total missed opportunity. So, just to reiterate, ask what's behind the question because usually the intent is very positive and the execution is terrible. 

Michael Unbroken: Okay. So let's stay in this another moment then. I love where we're going in this today. So sometimes people can feel that even when they have the best intention behind the question or the statement, that somehow, they feel they can feel, I should say selfish or self-righteous, or that they have expectation. How do you navigate that part of the feeling of the being let down without making it seem like either, (A) you had some grandiose expectation that you are deserved something, and then (B) without making the other person feel shame or guilt about the thing they did or did not do? 

David Helfand: I think it's about setting a positive expectation and sharing what you want. You know, the mistake that so many couples make, and I've heard this time and time again, is where, you know, I tell people that one of my fundamental pillars of relationships is communication. And I've had a number of couples, including therapists that come to see me that say, oh, I'm a really good communicator, that's not the issue. And I kind of have to go like, okay, well find something else to work on. But in my head, I'm like, you know, we'll see. What happens a lot of the time is people are communicating but not effectively. So, you know, quantity is not quality. And if I'm telling you all the things I don't like about you and what I want you to change, I mean, you're going to get a negative defensive, combative response to that, most likely.

And so, in those cases of, you know, well, again, I was really hoping to sit down and have a good dinner, I wanted to have a date with you. You know, I wanna find ways to connect and be a team, these are all kind of aspirational goals for. For me and the relationship, so communicating it in those ways is really helpful.

Now, if you have a trigger of some kind that comes up, you have a decision to make. Do you still wanna kind of work towards your goals and move in that positive direction? Or do you need to take a moment to address the trigger and have a moment for your partner to really see a vulnerable side of you?

There are gonna be times where that's helpful. There are gonna be times where that's sort of tangential to what you're trying to achieve, and maybe you can kind of let it go or do the work on your own or, you know, whatever it is. If you've laid that framework before, then you can also shortcut it. So, you know, if I'm with my wife and let's say that, you know, one of my triggers has to do with feeling unwanted as a kid and she is on a phone call with a friend at the time that we're supposed to start our evening date with each other right then. Rather than going into a long soliloquy of like, oh my God, you triggered my childhood, and here we go again. And all this. I can just say, you know, this triggered my wanted bullsh*t from my past, and I think I just need like a hug and I need some attention right now to kind of move through that and I'll be good. Right. So we can shortcut that once we've laid the foundation, which is really helpful for couples too. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, I mean, even as you're saying that, I'm like, if someone would've told me that 15 years ago, I probably still would be with the woman, that was arguably my first love, right? But nobody told me and I didn't know. And so I bear bore witness to communication, being yelling, screaming, arguments, um, disappearing, putting walls up, ghosting, all of those things. 'cause like, that's what I learned. And then it's like, wow, man, sh*t, if you can learn that, why can't I learn the other side of this effective communication and the willingness to talk. But you know, one of the things that happens is that genuine curiosity sometimes, I mean, it opens up Pandora's box, right? I mean, it certainly can. And I think if you don't have the right, not only frame, but support for navigating it can become a little bit dangerous. Right? We know that these concepts and ideas about trauma bonding.

I wanna go into this for a minute. From your perspective and then from that and the literature perspective 'cause my perspective might be a little bit different than yours. First, can you define trauma bonding and what it is, and then secondly, is there any benefit to it in a relationship? 

David Helfand: Yeah. Trauma bonding is an interesting topic, so I don't know that I have a clean definition of it. I'm sure there are several out there. You know, I usually think of it as building intimacy through difficult past experiences or some, you know, some version of that. Then depending on the specific trauma, right? I think where it becomes a positive, let's start there.

I think where it becomes a positive is empathy and understanding. You know, so if you've had sexual trauma and I've had physical abuse in my past, we both understand what it's like to feel unsafe. We can both understand that, okay, this person gets me at a level that maybe other people won't. I think the issue is when that card is overplayed, right? So if you and I, hang out as friends and we both like beer, we're like, okay, cool. We like beer. We go out, we start drinking. You know, five years from now, if all we're doing is going out and drinking beer, we're not gonna have a friendship probably, right? And that's what happens. That's what I see with couples. That trauma bond is. It can sometimes not move past that point to then, like resolution, intimacy, growth and other areas, just like if you marry somebody because they were on your sports team and then you know, you injure your leg, you can't play anymore and the two of you are like, alright, well we don't have that anymore, and the relationship starts to fizzle. So it can be good as like that initial foundation, but then there needs to be something after that. And part of the reason for that is the infatuation period. So I'm sure you're generally familiar that you know, when you first meet someone, all the endorphins, dopamines, oxytocin is really high, your brain, your nervous system is basically drugged if you think of it that way. And that can last for a year sometimes too but generally people will say it's like a yearlong infatuation period. During that time, you need to build a foundation of trust, of vulnerability, of connection with each other.

You're kind of nesting with each other as a potential long-term mate, once that trust is built, though you, it's important for the relationship to mature past that. And there's some interesting literature that what connects people in the beginning of a relationship actually hurts the relationship later. And so this is part of the evolution and the growth that whatever you're doing to c to connect with each other in the beginning needs to evolve over time so the relationship becomes deeper and more mature and more, kind of insulated from potential problems and more resilient, you know, for the future.

Michael Unbroken: That makes a lot of sense because, I mean, it's kind of like, do you want to have the same conversation every day for the rest of your life? Right. I certainly don't, I mean, that's why we have a thousand episodes of this show. You know? It's like, I literally don't, um, one of the things that I, I know people come to you for is because their relationships and their marriages are in trouble, deep trouble.

They're like, yo, somebody send us a helicopter to rescue us from this building. It is on fire. Nothing is working. What do I do when you're with people and they're coming to you because they're in the most dire of circumstances, how do you get them into this place to be? Begin the process of healing, of beginning the process of communication, of beginning to understand a plausible outcome that is different than the thing that has brought them to this moment. I know you talked about hope and leveraging that where we started the conversation, but I'd love for you to go a little bit deeper, and maybe this is where the neuroscience plays a little bit of a role, but, but what does that look like when people are coming to you at the beginning? 

David Helfand: Yeah, so, 90% or more of the couples I see are doing some level of discernment counseling. You know, basically they are separated. They might have attorneys involved, they're at their wits end, and I often hear the expression, hail Mary, you know, that's pretty common. It starts with the intake on the first day of the retreat, because honestly, what I'm trying to do is I wanna learn more about the couple and learn more about each individual, but I also want them to see what curiosity looks like.

So as I'm learning about someone's story and their history, I am asking some questions. I am mirroring things back. I'm practicing some of the communication I want them to practice. And I've had a number of people that say, I didn't know that about my partner. We've been married for 40 years and I never connected these dots. And so for them, just to see that as a, you know, from a third party assist, I think is really powerful. And I should say that I do the intakes with both partners present. I tell them that you have to be quiet while I talk to your partner, and then you're gonna have your turn on the other side. And, and then I hold them to that.

So the other part of it is also creating a safe space for the process to take place. So I have a number of couples that will come to me and say, well, you know, we just argue. And I go, well, you're not going to when you're here because I'm gonna stop the conversation. So if one of you, you know, asks a question, you know, starts to head down that familiar path of blame and judgment and weaponizing information, I'm gonna stop you. And a lot of what I do is what's called doubling or role playing, where I might play the role of the partner to say what they're struggling to say and to give voice to parts of them that they're possibly not quite tapped into. But I can, I can feel the presence in the room, whether that's, you know, what we call inner child.

I feel like that's so overblown these days. But the inner parts of them that need a voice, the parts they're ashamed of the parts that maybe they don't have words for, you know, so I am their emotional intelligence in those moments. And, you know, as much as possible, I try to teach people those skills as we're going along, but because it's an intensive format, sometimes I need to do the work on their behalf so they can even see what it looks like. If you've never had a model in your life of what good emotional intelligence is, then me just telling you, here are the communication skills, good luck. I'm just setting you up to fail. Like that's not fair so, that's a big part of the work. And then, you know, what I tell couples is no one's ever taught how to be married. And one of the reasons that second and third marriages fail at a significantly higher rate than first marriages is people just make the same mistakes.

And one of the reasons that 40% of couples that get divorced regret it is people make the same mistakes. And so, although coulda, woulda, should'ves come back later in life, and so my job as your couple's therapist is to make sure that if you are considering divorce. You're doing so for the right reasons, and that if you are going to get separated, that your kids are gonna be okay if you have children, and that your future relationships will benefit from this current experience, whatever it may be.

One of the questions I get all the time or the comments, I suppose, is that I don't think we're compatible anymore, maybe we never were. And so we're just coming to, you know, kind of have that conversation and figure it out. And I can tell you from my experience, most couples are compatible, especially if you've had chemistry in the past. Most people are compatible, they just don't know how to be in that relationship. I can give you all the tools at Home Depot. If you don't know how to build a house, you're not going to build a house. You need to have the skills and the training to make that work. 

Michael Unbroken: And again, kind of where I opened up this conversation is none of us are taught this the most critical thing here. Here's what I think is so fast 'cause I've spent a lot of time in my life studying human dynamics, not only from the interpersonal and communication path like we're talking now, but also human sexual dynamics. I mean, reading everything from Esther Perel to Christopher Ryan to Kinsey Institute, research papers and everything in between, it was a huge fascination of mine when I was young because I just wanted to, one of the things that happened, I've shared openly on the show is that I did have childhood sexual abuse. And so I wanted to understand my proclivities, some of the things that I was into, some of the reasons I behaved, the way I behaved.

And so I took this deep dive down into this literature some of it very surprising, some of it not so surprising, but the thing that I think, holds true across all of it in the evolution to where we are now is, and it's not to have the conversation about what I'm going to say, but about the question I'm going to ask. So my question isn't about the context that I just laid out, but instead my question is, when you're dealing with these couples who come to you and they're like, Hey, I don't think we're compatible anymore. The chemistry is gone. Is that something that's innately human because maybe we're not actually supposed to be monogamous? Or is that something that we have put such a big onus that our partners supposed to be our everything, that we now rely on them to be our everything and that's just not actually feasible.

David Helfand: Yeah. So the question, you know, whether we're supposed to be monogamous, I think is more existential than biological. And certainly, there's a lot of diversity in people's preferences, sexual fantasies, proclivities, erotic blueprints, that it would be hard to, you know, give one answer. It's like, are we, you know, are we supposed to avoid bread?

Well, you could argue that in so many different ways, right? The second part of it though, I think is what I see more often, that people have an expectation of their lives and their partner is supposed to fit into that, right? I am supposed to be happy, I'm working on me, I'm doing me right. We have all these memes now that build somebody up, and there's an expectation as well that, you know, I want my life to be. Peaceful and calm and happy, right? Especially people that have trauma. There is a black and white thinking that goes into that. And this has been well documented that people that have developmental childhood trauma have black and white thinking all or nothing thinking. And that sometimes that can mean making decisions that require a level of gray and nuance that's, that's being missed.

So for example, if I'm with my wife and we disagree on something. if my concept is that we have to be aligned and our lives need to move in the same direction, and that I have a core value that you know is important to me, that you share, you could bring politics back into this, right? That if you vote for someone I didn't vote for, you're supporting something I don't believe in.

You're an evil person, right? And it takes a level of self-introspection that can be really challenging to say like, okay, well I'm making a lot of assumptions here. I'm making an assumption that if you vote for something, I don't believe with believe in that you are then evil or that you even believe in it. You know, maybe the assumption is wrong just on that premise alone. Maybe you're voting for the lesser of the two evils in your mind, but you don't really want either of them, right? So there, there's, this is where that curiosity comes back, which is really important. This also comes up a lot for people that are.

So let's take it in the sex direction. You know, one of the conversations I have a lot with couples is about porn, and people will say, well, my partner is, is involved in using porn. It's wrong, it's immoral. The women there are mistreated and you know, and, and we need to, you know, this isn't okay with me, right?

This incompatibility, this is another area where I would apply some curiosity and scientific rigor. So, okay, so the women are mistreated. Well, there is ethical female produced porn. If they were watching that, would you be okay with it? Usually people go, no. So I go, okay, so it's not really about that then like, it's nice that you're trying to be altruistic, but that's not really the issue.

You know, is there something else? Do you feel insecure? You know, a lot of people that watch porn are looking at young fit individuals. Is there something about that? Now let's take it to the, another side of the equation, which is that. There are some really good advantages to porn. Masturbation in general creates a safety bubble I can explore through masturbation fantasies that I might not be ready to share with you. I know how my body works probably better than my partner does in some ways, and some having the right timing and pressure and being able to extend my orgasm is a lot easier because I'm in my body and I can attune to all of that.

For people that have sexual trauma, trusting someone in the moment of orgasm can be really, really challenging. We all look fucking stupid when we orgasm. I don't care what Hollywood shows, like we all look really bizarre. We make funny noises. It's a really strange, intimate moment, and so being in that moment with someone we've entrusted to spend our lives with can be a really big challenge. This is one of the reasons that people go out and have affairs. It's easier for me to embarrass myself in front of someone that I might never see again and cut them off. You know, I can go have an affair with someone in a dungeon leather room because I'm not worried what they think about me. But if I tell my spouse that I want her to tie me up and whip me, there's no coming back from that.

Once I've said that, that's one of those things you can't unhear from your partner making that request. Right? So, by the way, this is called the Madonna Complex. For people that are interested in looking it up, the Madonna complex is kind of going out and asking other people for things that you wouldn't ask your spouse. So there's there documentation on that. And again, we come back to that. The neuroscience behind it is self-preservation, right? If part of your story is that vulnerability is not safe, embarrassment is a wrecking ball in your life, you're gonna avoid that. One of the ways to avoid that is to find that with somebody else who's a low risk of that coming back and hurting you.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, and I'll speak from my own personal experience. There's no safer place than an emotionally unattached sexual experience. There's just not. Right. And that's such a crazy mind game to play with yourself when A, you bring in the self-awareness to understand that that exists. And then B, looking at the reality like that can plausibly exist within the dynamics of a relationship.

But people, you know this as well as anyone 'cause you're seeing this on a day-to-day basis and especially your trauma survivors, which you're, you're so spot on. I mean, if you had, and there's so much research, I'll create this context first. There's so much research that points to the very thing that caused the trauma becoming eroticism in adulthood. And it's so fascinating because that's something that can be navigated safely and it's something that can be the complete opposite and it's dangerous. And I think that if you can get to it in safety, you lose the thrill of the chaos of it, but you gain the intimacy of it being something that is about bonding with someone and, and that in its own right is super special because to go and walk down this path of the Madonna complex, I think.

It avoids the sexual rejection of the intimate partner. But what it does is it creates an unrealistic world because at the end of the day, what are you gonna do? Be fucking 60 and single and still never having an intimate relationship and chasing the next high, and the next partner and the next thing. And what we're starting to see is I'll speak from the perspective of both men and women for a moment. Even though I'm only a man, you're seeing men who are now leaning deeply and heavily in towards porn and things like OnlyFans, because it forgoes the potentiality of rejection. And I saw this clip the other day where it was a woman being interviewed and she was asked, when's the last time that a man has come up and hit on you?

And she goes, probably been eight to 10 years. And I go, okay, well look at the game that women have now played, where every man who walks up to them is a me too, is a creep, is a weirdo, is a loser, is a whatever adjective you want to input here. And so now we've created this really crazy toxic soup of men who fear rejection because women rejected them so much. And women who want men, but men now say they don't want women. And I think we're in where I began this conversation, this really chaotic space. But my hope is we bridge the gap. And that's what really a lot of this conversation is, because I think men have a misnomer that women are not as sexual as they are.

Read the book of 10,000 Wicked Thoughts and you will change your mind. You will cha. In fact, I would argue David and I might get some emails about this. I would argue that women are as bad, bad contextually, right? Naughty minded, if not more than men are. And yet we've been lied to believe that that's not true. Insert the princess complex. Right? So all of that is really to lead into this question with the people that you have worked with have you seen evidence that supports that someone can bring in, even in spite or despite the potentiality of rejection, their deepest, darkest sexual fantasies and bond with that, with their intimate partner in a healthy and productive way.

David Helfand: Yes, absolutely. I think you need to have the space and the safety to do so, and you need to have the, the skills and the tact to be able to have that conversation. So there, there's a lot that's involved in being able to do so. I would also say that there's a reason people are attracted to each other.

The science of attraction is really interesting. There was a cool study, and I forget where it came out of, where they, they gave women a bunch of shirts that men had worn over a few days. So there was a lot of pheromones, let's say, inside those shirts and they had them smell the shirts and then say which ones smell the most pleasant to them.

And when they analyzed the data, they found that women were more attracted to the shirts of men with more biodiversity from their own genetic pool. And so this is showing that, and this is one of the issues with online dating, is that it's important for you to smell your partner. It's important for you to actually have the full sensory experience of who you might be potentially mating with or even hooking up with 'cause it'll probably be a better experience if you actually have all that chemistry involved too. And so there's a reason that people then have that Your body has a wisdom that your mind won't. And it will never be able to tap into some of it. For example, I have had number of couples in this kind of experience, but I'll just give you one example where the, the husband had sexual trauma. He was interested in orgies. He was caught after going to a couple orgies from his wife. They were coming in for the affair, infidelity kind of work. And I asked him at some point in the session; did you ever invite your wife to an orgy? And he said, no. Like, I would never do that. And I said, what would happen? Like, what's the fear that's driving your behavior here? And he's like, well, she would think less of me. You know, I'm like, that's a gross thing. Like, you know, so eventually we got to the point where he was able to say. I am curious if you would ever attend one of these things, maybe not participate, but attend almost before he could get the words totally out. She was like, I would love to go with you like I'm totally into this. And it was a really good example of how there was some similarities in their kink and their fantasy and their interest. She just never had the, the ability, the language, the skills, whatever you want to call it. She never actually explored that with him.

And so the fact that he did it first felt like a betrayal, but once they were able to understand like, actually we both have this desire and interest. Last I knew they went on a couple adventures and, and had a really good time. And so. But it requires that all those skills we talked about, you need to be able to regulate. You need to feel safe, you need to understand what's behind this. By the way, there's some good evidence that before you engage in, you know, threesomes and orgies and all these other things, it's helpful to start with fantasy because you might not, you might be surprised what comes up during those experiences. You know, the first time you see someone give your partner oral sex, you might have a lot of emotions that you're not quite prepared to deal with. And so doing it first is fantasy and role play with your partner where you pretend to be somebody else or you dress up or however you wanna do that, is really an important step, you know, a baby step before you just jump into the deep end of the pool. 

Michael Unbroken: That's healthy advice. And by the way, that book was called “A Billion Wicked Thoughts.” I think I said 10,000, but it's a billion, which is I think probably a little more logical. You know, I think that so much of the dynamic of all of this, it comes down to communication.

So one of the things I want to dive into, obviously we've looked at the dynamics and the impact of communication in a relationship in a marriage and how you can kind of start to navigate these and create frames for healing and uncovering truth and honesty and curiosity and all the things that we've gone through so far, but we haven't talked about us single folks. And I think that in order to even get to a healthy relationship, you have to actually get into a relationship. Right. what comes to mind for me immediately? It is kind of a twofold question.

One, do you think that is important for people to quote unquote heal before they have a relationship? Or two, which is where Eileen, I'm not trying to sway you, but Eileen, that more healing actually comes from the context of being in a relationship. Do you find one tends to sway more than the other? 

David Helfand: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the in notion, the notion of work on yourself before you, you know, get into a relationship, I think is partly true. And it's partly bs, right? Shades of gray. So the four pillars that I focus on with couples are communication, regulation, prioritization, and intimacy.

Intimacy being all forms of intimacy and regulation is both individual and co-regulation as well. And there, there's a juggling act with all of this, right? You could be a really good communicator in a sense, but maybe you just don't prioritize your partner and the relationship fails. So all of these are important to some extent. I think where regulation becomes important before you get into a relationship is if you have so many hairpin triggers. That the way your partner blinks at you is gonna cause a rage response. You probably need to work on that before you can even have a meaningful, reasonable conversation and then build intimacy with your partner.

If you're at the point where your frustration tolerance, your trauma has some resolution to it, then yeah, I totally agree that marriage or relationships in general can be a very healing place. And by the way, I also wanna make a point that you can date someone and have a lot of healing and a lot of great experiences and then never marry them, that is totally fine. You can have a one-night stand that is really eye-opening. I don't think that happens as often as people would like it to, but it is certainly possible for that to take place the idea here is that you wanna bring the best version of yourself at the time into the relationship.

And for some people that means you need to do a little bit of work. For some people, it means you actually need to do that work in the context of the relationship in order to better yourself. You know, sometimes our partner exposes our blind spots. The one place where I would say I'm a little bit more pushy or picky on this is having kids. It's really unfair to not take care of your own sh*t before you have kids. 

Michael Unbroken: You know, I'm sure you could the show wouldn't exist if I did not agree.

David Helfand: So that's the part where I think you really need to work on your stuff. Now, was I a perfect being before I had kids? Absolutely not. My kids have helped me to grow in some ways. My daughter has more intelligence and emotional intelligence at like seven years old. Even at three years old, she said some stuff where I was like, oh my God, I can learn from you, you know? Thank you wasabi. But I was at a point where I had done a lot of work that I felt like, okay, I'm at a good jumping off point to now to kind of learn on the fly here. There's another piece that I wanna bring into this, which is self-sabotage. 

One of the homework assignments I give to almost every couple is make a list of the ways that you sabotage your relationship. Because there is so much blaming that takes place and the ownership, the ownership of it, is crucial and fundamental to building a good relationship. And again, this is true if you're gonna stay together with somebody for four months or 40 years, looking at your contribution and your sabotage is really important quick example of this so you've touched on this concept and I want to name it, which is repetition compulsion.

Repetition compulsion is old school psychology, but basically you're engaging in the same behaviors over and over as a subconscious way to try to give yourself the opportunity to create mastery.

Now, you could argue with Freud's perspective, is it you're creating mastery? Is it that you know the known is less scary than the unknown, so you're just repeating cycles. I don't think we need to answer that question right now for the sake of the conversation, but the idea being that you're just reengaging, people that have sexual trauma sometimes watch law and order SVU and they don't know why they're so addicted to it.

Well, sometimes that's repetition, compulsion, right? You're just trying to keep exposing yourself to it, get understanding, develop a sense of conquering in some ways that can drive people to sabotage. If you are used to conflict and chaos and that's like a space you grew up in, then you might find yourself starting arguments with your partner and they're like. Why are you arguing about the toothpaste we buy? Like where is this coming from? So Introspecting on that level of sabotage is absolutely vital. 

Michael Unbroken: That's super powerful. I'll add something if you don't mind, please. I think that one of the things you should also absolutely do is figure out the shit that triggers you because one of the craziest, I'll never forget this. I was having a conversation with this woman I was dating. This is in my early thirties. I mean, this is eight, nine years ago. And she said something to me and instantaneously, dude, I'll never forget this. I wanted to rip her f*cking head off. Like I was just so pissed. Thank God I was like deeply in men's group therapy and CBT at the time because I've learned how to quell the anger response that I have to people. And as I was sitting there, I was like, I said this in my head, by the way, I did not say this to her because this would be a real f*cking weird thing to say to a human that you've been dating for like a month.

I was like, this b*tch is like my mom, that's literally the words that went in my head, and when I said that to myself, I was like. Oh my God. This is a you problem. This is not her. This is you. So I’ll go figure out the places in your life you self-sabotage. Write a list and then go figure out the places in your life where you are triggered and write a list.

And then very similarly to what you do with your clients. I think, dude. So I'm gonna go on a quick tangent 'cause I love this kind, I'm fascinated by all of this. It's probably my number one fascination in my life. I believe that couples, potential couples should sit down and give each other and intake just in the way that you do in therapy, not in the capacity of judgment, but again, of the space of curiosity. Why do you not know what you're getting into? Dude, this blows my fucking mind how you could not know what you're getting into. People will buy a $75,000 car and you know what you're doing. They will go to a new career, know what they're doing. Hell, you know what you're doing when you go to the restaurant and you order food. And yet, when we get into relationships, we don't talk about the most important crucial human dynamics. So with me being the type A person that I am, after the end of my last relationship, thinking that was the one, and recognizing there were questions that I missed coming back to this ideal, my mentor taught me the quality of your questions, determining your quality of your life.

I created this thing called the “66 Questions You Should Ask Before You Get In A Relationship With Someone.” And basically, it's framed into six categories. Because I was thinking there's these six areas that we all exist in simultaneously, individually, and as relations. Mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, financial, and sexual. And my hypothesis, which I am currently in this state of testing, my hypothesis is that if you can get to 80% of equilibrium between the two of you on the ideals and the values and the way that you see the world through the framework of these six areas, you'll have a home run relationship. Just 80%. I don't think you need a hundred's nonsensical, never gonna happen. You should run. Maybe you're too different. And I think differentiation matters, but not to that capa not that much. All of this is to say this, I think that, and I would love if you can either support or dismiss what I'm saying or disprove I prefer you didn't dismiss it or disprove what I'm saying, that the questions we aren't asking are the reasons or relationships aren't working. 

David Helfand: Yeah. So it's clear you have thought very deeply about this, probably from a place of trying to find hope and also, self-analysis. And so Michael, I really appreciate a lot of what you're bringing here. I wanna respond, I'm gonna try to organize myself into, to everything you just said. So first off, I often talk about the 90 10 principles with couples. The 90 10 principle is basically that 90% of your strong emotional reactions are based in history. It's your childhood experiences, your cultural background, your past relationships, your traumas, all that baggage that we all take with us. Only 10% is contemporary. So you're having a conversation with your partner, they turn and leave the room. That's not like a nice thing to do, but if you fly off the handle from something like that there's probably a sense of abandonment, of feeling unloved, uncared for unheard disavowed, whatever it might be.

And that's the real crux of it there. So when I see that in sessions, I will often then move to do trauma therapy with that person in the dynamic in the couple's space in the room. Because we could argue all day about, well, this is how you should respond and blah, blah, blah, but that's not getting to the root of it and we need to kind of pull up that 90% and deal with what's coming up in the room. So that that's part of it. You also mentioned the intake that you would like to provide. I would love to see a dating profile. If you ever wanna share that with me of yours, be happy to.

One caveat, I generally agree with what you're saying, however, there's some good research that people that have trauma. Again, that dichotomy of black and white, we, they can either hold back a lot or they can overshare. Oversharing tends to be another form of self-sabotage, right? It can be intense, right? If you're like on the second date and you're like, Hey, I wanna come clean about all the shit in my life, that's a lot, right? And so, I think the way the intake takes place, and I mean, I obviously, I don't think it's like a formal intake or maybe you're describing a formal intake, but the way that it takes place.

Michael Unbroken: I'll tell you more about it. 

David Helfand: The way that it takes place I think is really crucial. And being able to say pass, I think is, is absolutely necessary in order for that to feel really genuine and be appropriate. The other piece I wanna respond to is the 80% compatibility with partners. I think that the research often shows that couples initially, as they're nesting with each other, do have a level of compatibility. And the compatibility might not be that we see the world the same way. It might be more nuanced in kind of how you think what's important to you in a relationship. Right? It's not you like apples and I like apples. Right? It's different than that. The issue though is that couples drift apart. So this idea of like, are we compatible, what overlap do we have at the beginning does have some value to it. However, the team and the connection and the continued oxytocin bonding hormones and neurotransmitters through the relationship that really speak to the longevity of it.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, no, of course. Because you always see the couples who stop dating each other end up being the couples who have the hardest times and staying in a compatible relationship. Right? Absolutely. so I want to create just a touch more context around this questionnaire that I created 'cause I actually shared it on social media like two years ago and went semi viral.

And the reason why is because I framed it so that it's not something where I sit down and interrogate somebody, but it's something that you participate in mutually over a period of extended time. And that period of extended time is, you know, three months to six months in that dating window before you step into the next phase of a relationship.

And what it's really built around is every time that you're together, assuming you're together, call it one time, in the beginning, two times a week as you go, three, four times, as you continue to progress forward, you're just grabbing one or two questions and having dialogue and the reason why I wanted to create that and it's something that I've utilized and it's the thing that led me into my past relationship was because I just realized like I was letting chemistry drive, and as you talked to and alluded to already, after a year, that whole thing kind of fades and it's like, oh shit, I'm not actually in a bus. I am in an airplane that is quickly crashing to the ground and I just wanted to create a little bit more space to understand you talk about this genuine curiosity.

I don't think if you're genuinely curious about the way that the person you think you're gonna spend the rest of your life sees the world, you're probably in deep shit. And then I also think like it requires you to be more curious about who you are. It's not about an expectation. Mind you tho those kind of lists I don't think serve people very well because it creates pedestals that no one's ever going to reach or accomplish, yourself included. But I think creating frame of just being like, Hey, I just want to know who you are, is amazing. And David, the thing that I've seen, and this is not anecdotal, maybe it is beyond myself, but in my own experiences I've seen the people who are unwilling to sit down and have that rapport with you generally in my experience, are people that you're never gonna see again because they're actually not genuinely curious in you. So it's one of these things where it, I think it just does a lot to create a human dynamic that otherwise it just isn't there. 

David Helfand: Yeah. I mean, and you've mentioned in your past podcast, your type A personality and very top down approach to how you see the world. And I think this works really well for that group. Right. As a bottom up process though, and this is what I think is sometimes lost in our culture, is the ability to flow with conversation. You know, I've definitely had more people ask me for relationship questionnaires, self-evaluation forms, like there's this inability.

I don't know if inability is the right word, but there's this maybe fear of kind of trusting your gut, trusting the, the flow and evolution of interaction and also a lack of training. You know, I think we're, we're losing the ability in a lot of ways to be able to sit down and just have a conversation.

You know, I really like, you know, before we got on air, you know, you and I had a quick check-in about like, okay, so here's a general idea of what we want to talk about. What we both kind of said like, but we're also just gonna go wherever it goes. Right? And I think a lot of people have, have lost that ability. And again, especially if you have trauma, one of the things we know is that predictability is really important to be able to say that. I kind of know that whatever I say is gonna be safe with you or even I know what we're going to talk about ahead of time and you know, I know neurodiversity in this, this term is coming more into vogue these days as well. And for people that are in that space, having structure and predictability is also really important for alleviating anxiety of the unknown in relationships. 'cause it's really scary sometimes. You know what could come of a conversation? 

Michael Unbroken: Definitely, and I found myself to be very open to anything that possibly comes through the context of a conversation. But I've also found this to be true about myself and, and many people that I know who relate to me, who I personally know, I'm not just pulling people's names out. It's that when we have a context of understanding someone, we can connect with them more deeply and more intimately. One of the things that, like for me, for instance, if I don't know, and if I can't gauge where someone is at, huge red flag for me, walls go up, fight, flight, fear, fawn response, that kicks in. I shift into survival mode, meaning, and my mode is fight. So my mode is not, I'm not fawning, it's war, right? And so that puts me in the hypervigilant state. So being in human connection with someone else who may be I'll say this…

When I'm around people who are unwilling to tell the truth, 'cause we have great barometers for liars as trauma survivors, it's something that we all, many of us master. I automatically go, that people not trustworthy. And sure, there's obviously the conversations for neurodiversity and things of that nature, but I think about eye contact a lot, David. And if I'm sitting with someone and outside of the context of even our intimate dating relationship experience, if we're not making eye contact with each other, something's askew. You know, and I think that a lot of the framing for anything question and relational to me is like, I wanna see who somebody really is because for a guy like me that creates safety. And if we think about the relationships and dynamics and everything we've talked about here, at the end of the day, we all just wanna be seen, heard, and to be safe. And for me personally, I don't have a better way to do that. So this has become my approach to it. Before I ask you my last question, though I do want to ask you this for people. I'm gonna stay in the single dump for a minute. So the people who are in this place of, they know in the past, they've self-sabotaged, they're getting aware of their triggers, they understand that they have this repetition compulsion. Maybe they used to overshare and they figured out that was a bad thing, and they're getting better at understanding this 90 10 principle. They're well in their space of healing and they're ready for a relationship, but subconsciously it's still not there for them. What do they need to do? Because some of the people that I've coached over the years, they come to me and they're like, Hey, I'd love to have a relationship. What would you say to them?

David Helfand: I would say, where'd you hear that? Where'd you learn that? You know, it's interesting when you start digging into people's beliefs and their inner monologue, the voices in our head, and I don't mean in a pathological sense, I mean, everyone has voices in their head, right? The voices in our head are often taken from somewhere. And when you're, when you know how kids have no inner monologue, like they just, they're just talking out loud, like everything's out. 

Michael Unbroken: They're the best. 

David Helfand: At some point though, they take that outer monologue and they bring it in. And what happens is all of the other shit in the world also comes in with it. It's a wide net. You bring everything in. So everything that people have said about you, to you around you also come into that inner monologue. And we, we tend to misattribute that to our actual authentic being. So if you're at a point where you have the ability to say, you know, who does that sound like in my life? You know, you don't deserve love. Right. I don't deserve love. You don't deserve love. You're not ready for a commitment, right? If you ask yourself like, what's just free associate? That sounds like, that sounds like my mom. That sounds like my first girlfriend. That sounds like this kid I grew up with, right? If you can start to figure out the origins of it, that 90 10 component, then you can, you can really internalize the sense of like, this isn't me. Like, yes, I've taken it on and I've adopted it, but understanding where it comes from is the first step to being able to then dissociate it from who you really are.

One of the ways to do that, I mean, there's so many techniques to do this. I'm a big fan of the, the somatic work, so you know, when you call that into mind, like where do you feel it? How big is that feeling? Where does it come from? What does your body do in response? You know, a lot of people, they start to hunch their shoulders, they baw their fist. This is a fight or flight posture, so clearly there's something deeper than just the thought at face value. So, you know, um, journaling can be a really good way to do this. I'm a fan of stream of consciousness journaling where you just write nonstop for at least five minutes. There's a lot of BS that goes into that too, where you're just writing fluff, but there's often some good kind of subconscious insights that then come out too.

And so that's a really good place, you know, place to be. I would also say that, so one of my original trainings was in neurofeedback and brain mapping. I really like neurofeedback in this kind of space because I don't know if we have time to get into all this, the science behind it and, and what it is, but it's a way to access neural pathways and the wiring of your nervous system that subverts talk therapy so you can work on this feeling and awareness of, I'm not worthy, or the world is not safe, or I'm not safe in a way that works on the neurons and the synapses that you, you, you don't have to talk through. And a lot of people that I've worked with that have trauma feel exhausted with talk therapy. You know, you're the 14th person I've shared my story with, right? And so, having another way to get at it, I think is really helpful for a lot of people. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, that's all powerful, man. And the reason why I wanted to have you today is that we all can lean towards and have and experience a healthy, loving, compatible, fulfilling relationship. And it's not that we don't have our sh*t. I'm sure you and your wife argue all the time. It's human dynamics. We're gonna have that experience, you know, argue with my friends, I've argue with partner like that's the thing. But it's like, can you find the path forward daily? Can you learn to love yourself enough to allow someone else to love you? Can you show up and be the person that you want and choose to be and need to be so that someone else can want and choose and need to be that person for you as well? And hopefully people who are listening today will touch that a little bit deeper. Before I ask you my last question, David, where can everyone find you and learn more about you, your retreats, and what you do?

David Helfand: Yeah, so my website is marriagequest.org and I'm very excited to have taken over my parents' practice. They've been doing couples therapy and retreat work for almost 30 years. They retired less than a year ago, and I'm carrying the torch now. So I like to say that I've taken all the wisdom and lessons that they've curated over the decades, and now I'm just modernizing it. I'm adding more neuroscience. I'm kind of bringing it up to snuff for, you know, the modern age, and I'm happy. I always offer a free consultation for people that want to seek my services, so I'm happy to do the same. There's a lot of information on the website too. I recommend you read it and to be honest, I'm not a fit for everybody, just like any relationship out there.

So if you like the website and you like the style, awesome, I'd love a chance to help you. If you're looking for a slower pace, if you're looking for something that's different than what I'm offering, I respect that too. So people should make that decision honestly for themselves.

Michael Unbroken: And guys, go to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com. Look up David's episode for all that information and more in the show notes. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken? 

David Helfand: So I think it's about resiliency. You know, someone who everyone is going to have moments where they are broken, but it's the ability to pick those pieces up, to learn from it and to move forward. And I'll end with this story and in full disclosure in my dad's the one that gave me this metaphor, and I really love it. If you think of any hero, fictional or real in your life, they probably have trauma. You know, all the superheroes have been through some shit, right? People that you look up to have been through some shit, and the fact that they have taken that as a source of strength and power moving forward is usually what makes that person or entity a hero in your life. So I think it's about resiliency. I think it's about using that in some capacity to continue on in a meaningful way in your life. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. I love that man. Thank you so much for sharing it. Thank you so much for being here.

Unbroken Nation, my friends, thank you for listening. If today brought any value to you and your relationship, your future relationships, or the relationships of your past, or you know, somebody that you know, could use a little bit of help in theirs, share this episode with them 'cause I promise you, you will be a cornerstone in their journey as well.

Until Next Time, My Friends.

Take Care Of Yourself. Take Care Of Each Other

And Be Unbroken. I'll See Ya.