How Men Can Break Free from Shame and Become Unbreakable

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so first and last name, like a lizard.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, perfect, all right, in three, two, one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So many of us keep these deeply held secrets, things that, if we would share, maybe it helped change our lives, but there's fear, there's shame, there's guilt, there's not enoughness, there's so much to these things that we hold on to, that we don't even know what to do with them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the hard part about these things, whatever they might be, is the closer we keep them in, the more that they start to eat as a lie.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And in my own journey, as many of you know, I've shared many of my darkest secrets here on the show and not because there are things that I need to put out into the world because somehow I think if I do, life will get better, but more so, because I want other people to understand that they're not alone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly the conversation that we're going to have with today's guests, my friend, Michael, was sir.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael, welcome to show my friend.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I have it to be here, man, blessing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: super excited to have you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, your journey is absolutely unbelievable.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get into your story in some of your huge accomplishments.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But first, why should anyone listen to our conversation today?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're going into the depths.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, in society, especially on the male side of things, vulnerability is looked at as a weakness.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to show that vulnerability is actually your biggest strength.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So many of those pains that we carry as a child

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[SPEAKER_00]: and it destroys us and today I just want to show the other side of that the freedom of no longer having that grip of that that shame and that pain that we go through as child.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's, man, you talk about a unlock when when I think about my journey, by the time that I was 29, I mean, my life was a complete disaster, working through things, and a lot of ways, because I was so many secrets that I was just so afraid to get into, and one of them, as many people know who have listened to this show over the year, is being molested by a member of the Mormon Church, going to my mother, telling her my story, and her telling me, never talk about this again, this didn't happen.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And a big reason why I mean, we were very poor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We were in poverty.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes a church would pay our bills or buy us food or whatever the thing was that we got out of them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that ate me alive.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that for so many, not even just men, obviously a woman who was in the show, but for so many men, a lot of them who I have been able to connect with like you over the years, we kind of carry this secret on the inside, but it's not until you expose it, do you start to take your power back from it?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was really the reason why I started sharing my story.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I love you to take us back a little bit into the decision for you to start having this conversation

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I knew that it was, it was time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had accomplished a lot in my career and what a lot of people would look at as very successful.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have a very happy marriage, but I was a hiding that secret that you know also well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Our stories are so similar in a lot of ways.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew that I couldn't continue going forward

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[SPEAKER_00]: and be really the man I was created to be by continuing to hold that weight and that bondage that sexual abuse had really torn me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was smiling on the outside inside.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was honestly destroying me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was living in a place of what I call pain tolerance, not freedom, and now being on the other side of that, I truly understand.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then being blessed with the platform that I do

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[SPEAKER_00]: being a very strong masculine voice in a space that still is being swept under the rug.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And where I think we're finally at a point in society where we get enough really strong voices and men voices to speak up, we can really go out and move mountains with us.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's one of those things that it does require a lot of courage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I love for you to take us back a little bit and just share your story.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, we don't need to go into the gory details of it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, if for me, I think if a big part of this is unlocking and giving people permission, I think that sharing our story is one of the most important things that we can do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I, you know, one thing I say often is,

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[SPEAKER_00]: our biggest purpose, our greatest purpose in our lives, I truly believe is revealed through the healing of your biggest, our most vicious pain that you're holding.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And being on the other side of that now, you're perfectly positioned to help the person you once were.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had to go through my own journey to now be in the situation to be able to speak into any man that comes in front of me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I knew that if I only got to a certain place, there was going to come a time where an individual I was able to speak to, I couldn't authentically be able to share the story if I was still in a place that was only maintaining my pain, not in true freedom.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand true freedom until I got to the other side of that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: and now being able to share this with almost just a blessing to be able to share this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: As weird as that sounds because it's such a shameful and what a lot of guys look at as like a disgusting thing to go through and how confusing that is and how damaging it is.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But on the other side of it, I truly believe you get a superpower to be able to have one of the greatest purposes of your life of going through the trenches, the swamp lands of

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[SPEAKER_00]: sexual abuse, you know, is and then getting on the other side of being able to help men, you know, go down that same path that you did to get to a place to be able to help others.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I truly believe that's where it is.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So to go all the way back, it really starts your story very similar to mine.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have a father figure in the home.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was my mom and I. I was a, I was a very joyful kid.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was an athlete growing up.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And my mom realized though at an early age that I really needed that dad figure and this man came into my life around the age of five and at that point my innocence was stolen.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize it at the time and he did and in my mom didn't either, but this is where the grooming and the manipulation started.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This was a man of the church.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was a deacon at the church.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So he was using God's name and vain at the highest, most vicious evil way of doing it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is to abuse a child in that way.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so over the course of 10 years, I was sexually abused badly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember being that little boy that had all this joy in the moment that that happened.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I remember saying, okay, I am going to never tell anyone.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to lock this up in this safe inside of me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never share this with anyone ever.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine what people will think that judgment.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be the abuse kid.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never get a girlfriend, the shame that's in that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you're just a little boy, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so you don't understand, like your brain is not developed.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then the confusion of is this was a man that I loved.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I looked at as a father.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I had a lot of confusion as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So there's this sexual abuse that was going on, but also this spiritual abuse.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And those are two very different.

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[SPEAKER_00]: abuses that you have to get through the healing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have a very strong faith relationship now, but I stepped away from the Lord and from Christ for 15 years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when I thought he wasn't there and protecting me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was a different area, but I didn't turn to things like drugs and alcohol that a lot of men do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So when you go through sexual abuse, it's very common.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The longer that we hold that, it eventually manifests into things like addictions.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it's pornography, it's food, it's drugs, it's alcohol, it destroys you very slowly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I didn't turn to those things because I grew up a few of my stepfathers.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One of them was an alcoholic, I saw the abuse of alcohol.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then my other one had issues with drugs and suicidal type of things that were going on there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had seen these things that I associated to something very, very bad.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So for whatever reason at a very young age, I was like, I'm not going to do those things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I turned to accolades and success.

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[SPEAKER_00]: My abuse stopped at the age of 15 around that point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm almost dead.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like it is almost killed me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And at the age of 18 and really a lifeline and a family that came in around that time,

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I saw love, and I was finally in a home that was safe for a period of time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I got to college, I, I, I say my second lifeline was in the form of dumbbells and chicken breast.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, that lifestyle, it really transformed my life and transformed my mind.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was dealing with anxiety and depression, which you know really well, Michael, and what that happens after abuse like that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know at the time because I just wanted to build bigger muscles and I wanted girls to like me and I wanted to be on like the guys on covers of magazines, but ultimately I was just still trying to protect the five-year-old little boy inside of me that was hurt.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll tell you, like I started working out within weeks, I started feeling better.

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[SPEAKER_00]: My depression, my anxiety started suppressing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I found this new purpose and my identity and my confidence started raising.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and there is a lot in between that, but that's kind of the journey that started me from the abuse and the pain and all the, all the, you know, the stuff that's in between there and depression suicidal thoughts all of that to then being able to finally breathe a little bit through fitness.

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[SPEAKER_01]: My first thought is, I'm sorry that we have that in common, you know, I think about these stories and the space I've gotten a hold for not only people on the podcast, but also in my coaching programs or people after I do speaking events or signing books or whatever it is that I'm doing and it's just the first thing I think.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, if all the cool shit we can have in common, it's like, there's the least cool thing we could ever have in common.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that to me, it bothers me tremendously.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why a big part of why I created the show so many years ago is to give a voice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Not only to give a voice, but also to give space to helping people

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[SPEAKER_01]: understand that they're not alone and that there's a path out of this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you talk about at 15 years old.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when I was 14, I took a whole fucking bottle of ibuprofen.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I'm done.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I woke up on the bathroom floor covered in vomit because I was like, I'm,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Apparently ibuprofen doesn't kill you but you're going to puke it all up and and that was just I was in such a dark place not only because of the sexual abuse that I went through, but also my mom's drug addiction had just completely gone off the rails and You know, it's funny one of the things that I've done a lot over the years is try to understand data and there was some data points I put together here in in in preparation for a conversation and

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the hard parts about data, especially around sexual abuse, is there so much non-report and misconstrued reporting that happens, that it's really hard to get a solid figure especially when it comes to men and boys who suffer.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The statistics tend to be a little stronger for young girls and women, but even still, I mean, God, there's so many unreports.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the interesting things that almost across the board sexual abuse has in common in the home is that on average 69% of all childhood sexual abuse cases are from homes that are either homes that are single parent homes or homes that are non intact meaning a parent's divorced or there's always chaos or whatever it is and like you I grew up never meeting my father.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I've never had a conversation with the man, I've never met him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: My stepdad, alcoholic, drug addict, monster, you know, and so you have all these children growing up in these crazy ass environments, and the thing that happens more often than not, now addiction is going to tend to rear its head because we're looking for something to like, associate the feeling of that chaos,

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[SPEAKER_01]: and it's interesting because you can go addiction and we're going to get into this come sure you have stories you can go addiction into fitness and health and business and I would argue at times it's just as bad as sex and drugs and porn and women and or men right and so when when I had to like sit in the reaping if you will of my experience

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, it was, it was so bad.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I was 350 pounds, smoke in two packs a day, drink in myself to sleep, hooking up with an ungodly number of people, always putting myself in very dangerous situations.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the really weird parts kind of encouraged by the people around me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's crazy, because you see that in business too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You see that in fitness too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, so much of this, it's just such this direct pair well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, curious,

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in your own experience, what was it like for you to start to navigate the process of the healing of this?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because for me, there was a moment where I was sitting, I was looking at my life, I've shared this story many times before 350 pounds, laying in bed, eating chocolate cake, smoking a joy and watching the freak and crossfit games, and I'm like,

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is my life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm wondering for you, what was the kind of, um, I don't want to necessarily say rock bottom moment because I don't know that everyone has a rock bottom, but typically they do.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm wondering like what was the aha moment where like I have to actually do something about this?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then what was the process right in that space?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because this is the place where I feel people sit in it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: especially men and they believe I have to do something about this, but the sheer terror.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean that in like a literal sense, keeps them stuck.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So what was that like for you?

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[SPEAKER_00]: So my rock bottom moment was around the age of 15, but I was not ready to share a story at that particular point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to hold it to the grave.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I had made that commitment to myself at that age.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, and to share a little bit more about the story, it's in the book too.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, at 19, I get called by a detective and this was the first time that I was going to share it outside of with my mother.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I had to go let him know what this man had done to me because he got caught.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my guy ended up actually going to prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a huge story in all of that too and how that full circle many, many years later in my life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But my almost come to Jesus moment with the healing side of things actually happened nine years ago.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I was in a place of like I call pain tolerance.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't turn a drug's alcohol, that sort of stuff.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I turned to accolades and success.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I was on covers of magazines, I was a world champion, I was on reality TV shows, I, I, I, my hit was coming from the next cover of a fitness magazine.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And some people me do, that's an awesome thing, yeah, but it was, it was from a very deep-rooted painful, shameful place, I was not able to celebrate any of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm getting all this praise and I don't feel an ounce of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel hollow and I feel like I'm fraud in a lot of ways because I'm still protecting what happened to me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my wife, you know, God bless me with an amazing, amazing wife.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And she has always been just so supportive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I told my wife very early on in our relationship, very early, what happened to me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: said when you're ready to actually heal and you go through this process, then I'm going to be there with you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was that was huge because we know we have to have a safe home to do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So nine years ago, I was at a concert.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a Christian artist named Kerry Job, the song forever comes on.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And in that moment, I am just like weeping, man.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I am like, I'm out of control leaping and I'm like, what is going on?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I get these two visions.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One of them was to go see our children in Haiti.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We sponsor a school of kids in Haiti.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to go see my kids for the first time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing was I was on a stage sharing my story to a large group.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I just remember, I was like, there is no way in the world that I am going to go do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's no way.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I felt so uncomfortable.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I said, and I talked to my wife, and I said, you know, I think God just called me to go do this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's finally time to do this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And she goes, then we need to navigate this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, and I didn't know what to do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of guys, you're going to hear this a lot, like, okay, I've, like, where do I even go with this?

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[SPEAKER_00]: How do I, what, what are the steps?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What, what's the journey?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What's the road map?

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[SPEAKER_00]: As guys, we need a step by step on what we're supposed to do.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I had no idea where to go.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I went on the internet, kind of looked up some research and like, you know, who am I supposed to talk to?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to talk to a counselor.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't want to do any of that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's kind of where I was at that particular point.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wake up ridiculously early every morning just it's my lifestyle and and I I was just called to come into the room that I'm in right now and I sat down and I started writing and journaling and and so I wrote 50,000 words over the course of multiple years and I went back to each one of those moments that I could remember and God was opening me up and opening me up and

18:47.078 --> 19:12.478
[SPEAKER_00]: and through that process I was able to kind of navigate the healing and it took me seven four years and then January of 2024, I stepped on stage at a big conference that we hosted in Tampa and I shared my story for the first time and it was it was the scariest moment of my life, the hardest moment to get to and the most free unbelievable moment of my life as well all at the same time.

19:13.117 --> 19:19.346
[SPEAKER_00]: And I got off that stage, Michael, and I knew what my purpose was at that particular point.

19:19.807 --> 19:23.112
[SPEAKER_00]: I get off the stage in more than 10% of the audience came up to me.

19:23.552 --> 19:30.462
[SPEAKER_00]: CEO's top-level dudes and women in whatnot and said, thank you for your courage, I went through that too.

19:30.983 --> 19:37.032
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, okay, and then almost day by day by day,

19:37.501 --> 19:46.313
[SPEAKER_00]: I would end up talking to someone who had gone through it and I just got more comfortable and speaking about it and really knowing what the purpose behind it was.

19:47.558 --> 19:53.847
[SPEAKER_01]: It's powerful, man, you know, there's so many deep reflections that I feel for my own experience in this.

19:54.328 --> 20:05.945
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, one of the hardest things that I ever did, I was in this relationship with this amazing woman when I was in my early mid-20s and yet I was doing everything wrong.

20:06.466 --> 20:14.157
[SPEAKER_01]: And she just knew that there was something in me that was hurt and I gave her the world of credit because I would have told me to go fuck myself.

20:14.137 --> 20:31.217
[SPEAKER_01]: And she just stood by and she she stood by until one day I finally broke down man and I sat down on the bed next to her and I just told the truth and like even this moment like my heart rate is up just thinking about it because that was the scariest moment of my life

20:31.197 --> 20:34.282
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, I've spoken in front of 10,000 people on stage.

20:34.302 --> 20:36.366
[SPEAKER_01]: It's millions of people have listened to this podcast.

20:36.446 --> 20:42.837
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been on television like nothing ever in my life was as scary as the moment I told the truth for the first time.

20:43.258 --> 20:45.582
[SPEAKER_01]: And the truth about what had happened me in my childhood.

20:46.203 --> 20:48.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And to someone who loved me.

20:48.427 --> 20:48.728
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

20:48.768 --> 20:55.782
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think so many people suffer through this idea that if they tell the truth, they're no longer going to be lovable.

20:56.103 --> 20:57.526
[SPEAKER_01]: They're no longer going to matter.

20:57.546 --> 21:04.180
[SPEAKER_01]: They're no going or going to have the relationship or the partner there who they think that they're supposed to have in their life.

21:04.761 --> 21:08.308
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just have come to this place for myself where I'm like,

21:08.288 --> 21:10.451
[SPEAKER_01]: you're a shadow of yourself.

21:10.772 --> 21:16.421
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do not sit across from the person that you love the most in the world and tell them the truth.

21:17.142 --> 21:24.734
[SPEAKER_01]: And more so, if they're not there to fix you by the way, and they're not there to solve the problem, but they're there to hold space for you.

21:24.774 --> 21:29.301
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they don't, you might

21:29.281 --> 21:36.191
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a hard reality because you're like, I'm sharing the most vulnerable thing I've ever shared and I might get rejected.

21:36.611 --> 21:37.653
[SPEAKER_01]: The truth is you might.

21:37.993 --> 21:40.236
[SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe you've set with a professional first.

21:40.276 --> 21:42.800
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you do what Mike had done and you've set you right.

21:42.840 --> 21:45.364
[SPEAKER_01]: I've written four books.

21:45.704 --> 21:47.166
[SPEAKER_01]: Three of them have been published.

21:47.587 --> 21:49.429
[SPEAKER_01]: One of them will get published when I die.

21:49.990 --> 21:52.914
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first one that I ever wrote was similar to you.

21:52.974 --> 21:56.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I sat and I wrote my entire life story.

21:56.399 --> 22:00.065
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's probably about 85,000 words as of this moment.

22:00.746 --> 22:09.240
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just sits there in this folder on my computer that one day when I'm dead, it will go out into the world full of everything about my experience in my life.

22:09.961 --> 22:22.221
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that I was thinking as you are speaking is there's this really interesting experience that I think a lot of people have because I certainly did.

22:22.201 --> 22:29.971
[SPEAKER_01]: where you can have the accolades, where you can have the success, where you can have the people on the outside looking in, but you said, man, I never felt it.

22:30.211 --> 22:31.393
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like a fraud.

22:31.433 --> 22:34.677
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I just, I'm not actually that person.

22:34.697 --> 22:37.280
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I was playing a role.

22:37.821 --> 22:47.533
[SPEAKER_01]: I was pretending to be this young successful business guy running these companies doing this shit, and I was just in pure suffering every moment of the day.

22:48.543 --> 22:59.155
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you transform your experience from, I feel like fraud to actually accepting that you were worthy of the things that you were doing?

23:00.216 --> 23:03.340
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I have to touch base with you real quick.

23:03.600 --> 23:15.394
[SPEAKER_00]: What you just said, you know, because you had told us as a child, your mother rejected when you told her, and then this girlfriend that you were with at the time, she held it with you not trying to fix it.

23:15.863 --> 23:21.068
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we just got to be aware in those moments too that there are people that don't know how to actually do that.

23:21.088 --> 23:22.570
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just trying to fix things.

23:23.390 --> 23:27.374
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I love that you had the courage enough to do that.

23:27.414 --> 23:32.559
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to make that statement because that takes a lot of courage and vulnerability in that moment.

23:32.900 --> 23:43.390
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, I think being able to finally get the weight off and I kind of use it as a vision

23:43.724 --> 23:50.233
[SPEAKER_00]: not only in the swamp lands and finally getting to a dry place but then I'm climbing a mountain with 200 extra pounds off of me.

23:50.753 --> 23:57.583
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I was able to release that that day and then in the upcoming months something really big happened to.

23:57.603 --> 24:03.150
[SPEAKER_00]: I just I knew at that point that

24:03.805 --> 24:07.129
[SPEAKER_00]: I was three of what had gripped me for so long.

24:07.610 --> 24:10.914
[SPEAKER_00]: There was still scar tissues there of what I had gone through.

24:10.934 --> 24:12.836
[SPEAKER_00]: Those scars will always remain.

24:12.896 --> 24:15.419
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people think, oh, you go through something like that.

24:15.459 --> 24:17.942
[SPEAKER_00]: You can never forget that I won't ever forget that.

24:17.962 --> 24:24.510
[SPEAKER_00]: I just use it as a superpower now, not as something that, you know, I don't worship my wounds anymore.

24:25.091 --> 24:27.493
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't play a victim card anymore.

24:27.594 --> 24:31.298
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm using it to be a bigger purpose for someone else's life.

24:31.666 --> 24:57.792
[SPEAKER_00]: And that I think is the transition that happens in the healing process where it's like I truly believe now that I can help someone else a group of men thousands of men millions of men be able to be the man they were created to be to be the father they need to be to be the husband they need to be the leader they need to be because they're living in that same exact

24:58.261 --> 25:05.030
[SPEAKER_00]: struggle and suffocation that we had, which is the shane just gripping us constantly.

25:05.110 --> 25:07.252
[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't matter what we accomplished.

25:07.593 --> 25:09.235
[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't matter what hit you did.

25:09.275 --> 25:11.518
[SPEAKER_00]: It just, it wasn't fulfilling.

25:11.658 --> 25:19.007
[SPEAKER_00]: It was never going to, it was never going to amount to what true freedom was, although that's what we wanted.

25:20.149 --> 25:22.632
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so I think that, you know, for me,

25:23.084 --> 25:52.197
[SPEAKER_00]: getting that weight off and now being able to speak about it publicly and almost there's a deep fire in me that that is that burns so much hotter than any world championship or any cover of a magazine or any next seven figure deal or whatnot that I've ever had in my life like it it it carries a purpose it's so much larger than myself and that that and itself keeps me going every

25:52.750 --> 26:02.740
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I resonate when I go and I look back at the beginning of this, you know, almost a decade ago now, I never anticipated what it would do and what it would be.

26:02.780 --> 26:22.420
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just me looking at hopefully sharing information that would help people because I'm a writer and I was writing and I was putting blogs out and I hope that my brothers would read them and I hope that the people around me would understand me better and it was away from me to express

26:22.400 --> 26:27.328
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever it has become and what it will become as we're transitioning in a lot of things now.

26:28.049 --> 26:31.254
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that I always come back to it's I had to start with me.

26:31.314 --> 26:47.040
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's so difficult because I think and especially when you're talking about this scope of men and this is probably very topical because of the time, you know, Louis Ferro's new documentary came out about the Manisfier just this past week.

26:47.020 --> 27:01.802
[SPEAKER_01]: And I see these guys out in the world, some of them I know, like, and I watched the way that they handle themselves as men, whether it be the Andrew Tates or the Wallers or the, you know, the, the migrants and all these guys.

27:02.283 --> 27:06.990
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just, I guess, think to myself, these are some of the hurt most hurt men in the world.

27:07.531 --> 27:12.538
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is not how masculine actual real men behave, because

27:12.518 --> 27:14.921
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I used to behave, Micah.

27:15.342 --> 27:16.663
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'll put this out there.

27:16.704 --> 27:35.168
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was hurt and a lost little boy in my teens in my 20s, how these guys were speaking and acting and professing, that's how I was to a T. Like when I watched these guys, I can't help but think to myself, man, they got hurt so bad.

27:35.148 --> 27:36.933
[SPEAKER_01]: and they cannot let go of it.

27:37.193 --> 27:39.519
[SPEAKER_01]: And look, and sometimes it's a super power to do.

27:39.559 --> 27:40.121
[SPEAKER_01]: You get rich.

27:40.141 --> 27:41.083
[SPEAKER_01]: You get a great body.

27:41.404 --> 27:50.187
[SPEAKER_01]: You get hook up with a bunch of women and it feels good until the moment you're on your deathbed and you realize you've never genuinely allowed anyone to care about you.

27:50.167 --> 28:09.913
[SPEAKER_01]: the thing that I'm thinking as I'm watching what's happening in our world right now and all of these young boys falling into this path because now they've been hurt by society right especially if they walk through sexual abuse or emotional abuse in the home and so they think the thing is that they have to protect themselves.

28:09.893 --> 28:14.564
[SPEAKER_01]: and protecting themselves as big muscles and big house and big cars and all the women.

28:15.105 --> 28:24.949
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's actually the very thing that's hurting a lot of them because they don't recognize what I think also just the time frame that we grew up is very different than them.

28:24.929 --> 28:33.018
[SPEAKER_01]: but they need masculine men like us and masculinity has gotten such a bad rep over the last 15 to 20 years.

28:33.498 --> 28:36.221
[SPEAKER_01]: We're honestly my best friends and I we talk about this.

28:36.301 --> 28:37.623
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like it's hard being a man.

28:37.923 --> 28:39.745
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like really hard being a man today.

28:40.146 --> 28:41.067
[SPEAKER_01]: But I still show up.

28:41.127 --> 28:41.948
[SPEAKER_01]: We still do it.

28:41.968 --> 28:44.530
[SPEAKER_01]: We still lead the way we think that we're supposed to.

28:44.570 --> 28:45.632
[SPEAKER_01]: We take care.

28:45.692 --> 28:46.212
[SPEAKER_01]: We provide.

28:46.252 --> 28:47.353
[SPEAKER_01]: We do our best.

28:47.874 --> 28:53.400
[SPEAKER_01]: But when we sit here and we watch these guys out in the world, you have these two scopes.

28:53.380 --> 29:02.700
[SPEAKER_01]: of what I see around these people who are talking about boys and their transition in the manhood, masculine energy, masculinity, masculine energy, and this healing journey.

29:03.060 --> 29:05.826
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so convoluted, but generally see two things.

29:06.227 --> 29:08.472
[SPEAKER_01]: I see that camp, the manosphere guys.

29:08.532 --> 29:11.558
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I see the very incredibly, and I

29:11.538 --> 29:14.581
[SPEAKER_01]: People are gonna take this a wrong way, and I don't mean it to be.

29:14.741 --> 29:16.082
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just how I see the world.

29:16.523 --> 29:19.406
[SPEAKER_01]: These men who I would not walk into a war with.

29:19.846 --> 29:23.009
[SPEAKER_01]: These men who are, I would not trust at the gym to hold the barbell.

29:23.069 --> 29:25.612
[SPEAKER_01]: These men who are, we all need softness.

29:25.652 --> 29:28.995
[SPEAKER_01]: We all need that other side of the energy and the feminine energy.

29:29.055 --> 29:33.279
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think Sigma Alpha Beta like that's whatever, who cares about that.

29:33.539 --> 29:38.524
[SPEAKER_01]: But I see men who are not stepping up and yet they're talking about the healing journey.

29:38.504 --> 29:40.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody needs a different voice.

29:40.467 --> 29:46.697
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me be clear about that because I need a different voice and trust me, I'm not going to connect to the very soft person.

29:47.138 --> 29:49.481
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up playing for sports and I like combat.

29:49.501 --> 29:55.351
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I need the hardcore guy in my face who's like, yeah dude, I can hug you and we can also like go and fuck some shit up.

29:55.892 --> 29:59.297
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm really curious for you as this

30:00.172 --> 30:17.238
[SPEAKER_01]: for lack of a better way to phrase that this man who men have been looking up to for a very long time, how do you handle and navigate this conversation when all of this chaos is surrounding us and people are getting driven in all of these different directions and they don't know who to anchor to?

30:18.440 --> 30:20.223
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm in full agreement with you.

30:20.283 --> 30:28.255
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, when I see a lot of those guys, I see exactly what you see and we see it and understand it because we've gone through it and it's been there.

30:28.859 --> 30:29.239
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

30:29.400 --> 30:41.174
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I actually, you know, those are the type of guys that I'm actually like praying for because I'm like, I'm like, what society doesn't know is what that man is still protecting.

30:42.135 --> 30:50.826
[SPEAKER_00]: And he has gone a super hyper to to to to the area of hafting to have all these things to fulfill.

30:51.246 --> 30:55.812
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reality of the situation is is the perception that they now created.

30:56.163 --> 31:15.835
[SPEAKER_00]: is not it's it's more than likely not accurate and I don't know their full stories but when you know you know you know like when you see someone that that is that is at that particular level it's very very common that something childhood happened that they're still holding on to.

31:16.516 --> 31:17.057
[SPEAKER_00]: And so

31:17.560 --> 31:21.305
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for me, in general, you know, my faith means a lot to me.

31:22.066 --> 31:27.633
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, I would definitely consider myself a very masculine man in a lot of ways.

31:28.033 --> 31:34.161
[SPEAKER_00]: I love to be a covering for my wife and have the strength that's necessary to do that.

31:34.642 --> 31:39.328
[SPEAKER_00]: A leader that a strong leader in the, in the different spaces that I'm in.

31:39.969 --> 31:44.935
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the strongest man is the one that can balance out.

31:45.691 --> 31:52.917
[SPEAKER_00]: that masculinity side and also the vulnerable side and utilizing that when it's needed.

31:53.718 --> 31:54.038
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

31:54.218 --> 32:14.196
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I have no problem when I am in a situation with the man that has gone through tremendous things to allow myself to get emotional so he can see inside and what I truly am, not just the muscles that cover me, but what I truly am so that it will open him up to me,

32:14.851 --> 32:18.887
[SPEAKER_00]: and being able to actually truly serve another human being.

32:19.751 --> 32:23.747
[SPEAKER_00]: And that to me is how I define masculinity.

32:25.162 --> 32:29.830
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's a big part of it is to be able to hold space.

32:30.191 --> 32:30.391
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

32:30.471 --> 32:32.235
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're they're strength in it.

32:33.076 --> 32:38.125
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that can be very scary because there's also a lot of responsibility that comes along with that.

32:38.906 --> 32:45.398
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a lot of people who especially young boys where they come down the path that we

32:45.378 --> 32:49.463
[SPEAKER_01]: And Michael, you and I went in very opposite directions, right?

32:49.483 --> 32:57.171
[SPEAKER_01]: We have some parallels in success in business working out some of the things there, but whereas you went one way and I went another way.

32:57.251 --> 33:01.836
[SPEAKER_01]: On a long enough timeline, I think if you start to do healing, you kind of end up where we are.

33:02.317 --> 33:05.320
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just seen it happen too often, not to believe that that's true.

33:06.061 --> 33:07.943
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm curious, how would you

33:09.323 --> 33:18.817
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you impart in someone a young man who's listening right now, or their mother who might be listening, or their wife who might be listening?

33:19.338 --> 33:22.182
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're like, I know that something happened to him.

33:22.202 --> 33:25.487
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see it in his, we wear it on our face, man.

33:25.507 --> 33:28.792
[SPEAKER_01]: I look like I was 47 when I was 17, you know?

33:28.832 --> 33:34.420
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, what, what would you impart on the people who are supporting them?

33:34.501 --> 33:35.804
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you give them?

33:35.844 --> 33:40.815
[SPEAKER_01]: How would you tell them to be able to stand in this arena?

33:40.855 --> 33:47.329
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing is, is don't pressure him into saying something that he's not ready to say.

33:47.849 --> 33:53.614
[SPEAKER_00]: And that can be a little bit disappointing because you know that he's more than likely gone through something.

33:54.034 --> 34:17.535
[SPEAKER_00]: You're seeing, you know, especially the deeper you get into if you start researching trauma, mills, sexual trauma as a child and whatnot, you're gonna start seeing patterns with the man that you're with, whether it be your brother, your husband, your father, whatever that may be, your son, you know, but what needs to happen is, he needs to know that you're an extremely safe place for him.

34:17.937 --> 34:21.804
[SPEAKER_00]: and a safe person for him, that you're there to support him.

34:22.265 --> 34:32.383
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to go into what the subject is and just let him know that if and when he's ever ready, that you are there to hold that story with him.

34:32.403 --> 34:35.468
[SPEAKER_00]: And like you mentioned before, it's so incredibly crucial.

34:35.969 --> 34:42.561
[SPEAKER_00]: If this man has finally gotten to a point or your son has finally gotten to a point where he

34:43.081 --> 34:45.728
[SPEAKER_00]: he comes to you and he shares this.

34:45.828 --> 34:50.440
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to understand this is the hardest moment of his life.

34:50.901 --> 34:57.698
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the scariest moment of his life and how you respond is literally like life and death to him.

34:58.353 --> 35:15.488
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you can fill him full of life by holding that story, not trying to fix him, or you can kill it by stopping him from talking because it's uncomfortable, or from denying that it ever happened, or don't ever share this ever again.

35:15.889 --> 35:17.510
[SPEAKER_00]: That will destroy a man.

35:18.050 --> 35:26.638
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very rare that after being told what you were by your mother, that you actually had enough courage

35:26.855 --> 35:32.444
[SPEAKER_00]: If a man is told when he's a child, don't ever bring this up again a lot of the times they don't ever again.

35:33.045 --> 35:36.410
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so I'm so thankful that you had the courage to do that.

35:36.550 --> 35:42.740
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, for those people that are holding that space, it is so incredibly crucial.

35:42.820 --> 35:46.666
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do believe it's the first step for healing for that man or that boy.

35:48.850 --> 35:52.896
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I'll add to this because it was my experience.

35:53.348 --> 35:56.331
[SPEAKER_01]: with my mother telling me to never talk about being molested.

35:56.351 --> 35:59.233
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I didn't matter.

35:59.253 --> 36:00.414
[SPEAKER_01]: I was unlovable.

36:00.514 --> 36:02.236
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there were so much shame and guilt.

36:02.256 --> 36:12.145
[SPEAKER_01]: Plus, I was in the Mormon church, and I was a boy scout, and I was an athlete, and I'm six foot four, two, 20, and I'm a big man covered in tattoos, and all these things transpired in my life.

36:12.665 --> 36:23.355
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was sitting and looking at the space that I was in, at 25, 26, 27 years old, and I'm just like,

36:23.335 --> 36:31.805
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be honest with you, Michael, the thing that pulled me into the courage of that moment of sharing it again is because I was going to kill myself.

36:32.166 --> 36:33.647
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

36:33.748 --> 36:34.689
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just the truth.

36:34.769 --> 36:39.935
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, if I don't tell someone, I'm going to explode into million pieces.

36:40.275 --> 36:42.578
[SPEAKER_01]: And I might take somebody with me.

36:42.919 --> 36:52.330
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was me sitting in that moment and having a huge amount of fear in being like,

36:52.310 --> 36:52.932
[SPEAKER_01]: fuck it.

36:53.373 --> 36:54.576
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and that's really what it was.

36:54.657 --> 37:07.332
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I wouldn't encourage anyone who's listening, whether you're a man or a woman, and you've walked this path, you've suffered in any capacity, you know, the first time you speak about this,

37:07.312 --> 37:14.561
[SPEAKER_01]: will be the most freeing thing that you ever experienced if you're doing it within a space that is meant to hold you.

37:15.041 --> 37:17.344
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why support groups are so incredible.

37:17.464 --> 37:24.513
[SPEAKER_01]: And therapy, so incredible, and coaching programs and even speaking with men like Micah is so powerful because we've been there.

37:25.274 --> 37:28.878
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I have this question that I wrote as you were talking because I started thinking about it.

37:30.200 --> 37:34.585
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that I shared again because I was going to explode.

37:34.767 --> 37:48.034
[SPEAKER_01]: but I think there's men who have never even contemplated it because they feel shame, they feel guilt, they feel weak and most importantly probably above all they hate themselves.

37:49.162 --> 37:50.524
[SPEAKER_01]: What would you think of those guys?

37:50.704 --> 37:53.107
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, and I think there's another layer too.

37:53.147 --> 37:59.574
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of men that it happened so long ago that they totally suppressed it and they don't even remember it.

38:00.135 --> 38:00.635
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

38:00.936 --> 38:05.541
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, because every situation is slightly different, we talk about the healing.

38:05.581 --> 38:13.971
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the healing is always different, depending on the severity that it happened from another child that was the same age as you as their confusion from that, that it happened.

38:13.951 --> 38:42.574
[SPEAKER_00]: from an adult like us that manipulated through faith, I mean, there's so many different layers, was it sex trafficking, there's like so many different layers that are there and you know for for that person that's out there that is, you know, that that you know, they they don't know where to go, what to do, what to say or what not, I would just I would say it's one of the most difficult things to do and it takes the most courage to do it.

38:43.347 --> 38:49.296
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, like we said, both of us had said, it's also the most freeing thing to do that.

38:49.997 --> 38:54.543
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you're looking at, you may not be ready to go to a group and sit now.

38:55.364 --> 38:59.490
[SPEAKER_00]: You may not be able to, you know, be, like say I don't want to go to a counseling.

38:59.510 --> 39:03.156
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I didn't go to a counselor because I had trauma from counseling.

39:03.176 --> 39:07.482
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had associated a mother that went to counseling for 30 years and got worse.

39:07.867 --> 39:29.166
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I was like, that's not the route that I'm going to go, you got to know your own journey, you got to know what steps you're willing to take in it, but you also have to make that first step, which is committing to healing, I want to get better in that moment, you were like, I'm going to explode, I'm going to either take my life and take someone with me.

39:29.855 --> 39:32.459
[SPEAKER_00]: or I got to just open up and finally share this.

39:32.660 --> 39:41.735
[SPEAKER_00]: And the sad part about it and we talk about stats a lot, we know it's one in four, one in five men approximately in that that has gone through something similar as us.

39:41.775 --> 39:46.463
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes 21 years on average and then it takes 28 years for full.

39:46.713 --> 39:50.677
[SPEAKER_00]: like detail, love it, 21 for disclosure, 28 for detail.

39:51.138 --> 39:52.859
[SPEAKER_00]: We think about that, but then what is it?

39:53.080 --> 39:56.803
[SPEAKER_00]: 70, 80, 90% plus men never say a word and it kills them.

39:57.284 --> 40:00.767
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're in that moment and you're like, dude, I don't want to live anymore.

40:02.009 --> 40:05.692
[SPEAKER_00]: I would just say that there is hope in that courage.

40:05.753 --> 40:14.982
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be the strongest thing that you ever do and really connect what your shame is and your pain into something that is incredibly strong.

40:15.704 --> 40:18.087
[SPEAKER_00]: And then on the other side of this, I hear it all the time.

40:18.107 --> 40:20.450
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, dude, you're the strongest man I've ever met.

40:20.511 --> 40:22.513
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so courageous and whatnot.

40:22.533 --> 40:31.065
[SPEAKER_00]: That's good to hear because I can feel that now, but it required me going through the healing and the necessary healing and the work to get there.

40:31.626 --> 40:40.177
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, my fulfillment is being able to wake up to speak with a man and just give him hope and be a voice in his life for a period of time.

40:40.698 --> 40:43.602
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so that he can then go be who he needs to be.

40:44.020 --> 40:46.082
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and no longer carry that weight.

40:46.102 --> 41:03.781
[SPEAKER_00]: So for that young man or that older man, these 60, 78-year-old man there that's never said a word, I would just encourage you that you know, you're gonna gain something and a freedom that is really indescribable.

41:04.002 --> 41:12.711
[SPEAKER_00]: It is, it is a weight that is off of you, that that gives you true life.

41:13.653 --> 41:24.631
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would also add, you have to forgive yourself, yeah, so many of us carry this false narrative that it's our fault.

41:25.272 --> 41:27.616
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, I'm six foot four, two, 20.

41:28.137 --> 41:30.641
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know a single seven year old that can take me down.

41:31.162 --> 41:32.083
[SPEAKER_01]: It ain't happening.

41:32.063 --> 41:32.904
[SPEAKER_01]: you know what I mean?

41:32.964 --> 41:39.674
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like you think about that and it's like you are a child, something was taken from you and it's not fair.

41:40.355 --> 41:48.627
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a boy you grow up with this narrative that you're supposed to be strong and masculine and figured out and fight off and protect the home.

41:48.667 --> 41:52.913
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, bro, I will look every seven years, seven year old ass I ever got to be.

41:53.033 --> 41:55.316
[SPEAKER_01]: It is just they don't have a chance you know what I mean.

41:55.437 --> 41:58.241
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like as a man, and I'm glad that you can laugh at it.

41:58.261 --> 41:59.262
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I laugh at it too.

41:59.282 --> 42:01.345
[SPEAKER_01]: And I go, there's truth in that.

42:01.325 --> 42:01.706
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

42:01.726 --> 42:06.456
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like you have to forgive yourself for the thing that you couldn't control.

42:06.496 --> 42:07.037
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

42:07.057 --> 42:10.905
[SPEAKER_01]: And then people always lean into, well, you have to forgive the people that hurt you.

42:11.406 --> 42:14.853
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's also one of the things that you have to decide for yourself.

42:14.893 --> 42:18.962
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't necessarily encourage people which direction to take in that.

42:18.942 --> 42:31.526
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, because I think that that's a very hard and a very individualistic conversation, but I can tell you giving yourself permission to forgive yourself is absolutely one of the most important components of this.

42:32.087 --> 42:39.381
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious, you know, you mentioned that the person who abused you eventually got caught, they got arrested, they're in prison, and

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[SPEAKER_01]: what has the experience been like for you?

42:41.985 --> 42:43.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there forgiveness there?

42:43.387 --> 42:44.609
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you hold hatred?

42:44.689 --> 42:45.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have to let go?

42:45.851 --> 42:49.677
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it returning to faith that gave you strength to move through it?

42:50.018 --> 42:51.640
[SPEAKER_01]: What is that part been like?

42:52.121 --> 42:59.373
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, faith was was really foundational in all of it and, you know, from a biblical standpoint, you know, God talks about forgiveness.

43:00.434 --> 43:04.761
[SPEAKER_00]: What God doesn't specifically say is that forgiveness is supposed to be instant.

43:05.129 --> 43:07.052
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't believe it's supposed to be instant.

43:07.072 --> 43:15.584
[SPEAKER_00]: I think forgiveness in the trauma-healing space in my opinion is really, really far down the road.

43:15.685 --> 43:16.726
[SPEAKER_00]: At least it was for me.

43:16.746 --> 43:23.176
[SPEAKER_00]: I needed to write, I needed to forgive myself, I needed to create an actual real reality.

43:23.276 --> 43:28.123
[SPEAKER_00]: I was living in disassociation for so long, which protected me at one point when I was a child.

43:28.604 --> 43:33.010
[SPEAKER_00]: But now, later as an adult, I saw some of those same patterns that I was like, wait a minute.

43:33.344 --> 43:42.658
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm still doing things that I was doing when I was 13 years old as a way to protect myself and I don't need to protect myself anymore, right, like I'm I'm going to say, place now.

43:43.379 --> 43:57.580
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had gone through this entire journey and there was really kind of one piece left and that was that I needed to was I going to forgive this man or not and for me.

43:58.555 --> 44:04.443
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm probably six and a half years into my healing at this point when I make this decision.

44:05.444 --> 44:09.469
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll be completely transparent with you.

44:09.589 --> 44:14.596
[SPEAKER_00]: I ended up having this vision of Christ on his last day.

44:14.656 --> 44:18.460
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's getting beaten and whipped if you know that story.

44:18.741 --> 44:21.244
[SPEAKER_00]: He's, you know, he's getting spit on and whatnot.

44:21.264 --> 44:23.567
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets pinned to a cross and ultimately.

44:23.750 --> 44:28.735
[SPEAKER_00]: In those moments he says, please forgive them father for they do not know what they've done.

44:29.576 --> 44:43.691
[SPEAKER_00]: In that moment because of my own faith, I thought to myself, if this man gave his life for me and those around me and that's my belief, then I have to get to a place personally that I have to forgive this person now.

44:43.771 --> 44:50.078
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a difference between forgiving and still protecting other children from someone that evil.

44:50.328 --> 44:54.113
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a completely, I don't, I don't agree with the sin itself.

44:54.293 --> 45:01.863
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a horrible, horrific thing, and that's a completely different topic of what needs to happen to these people that hurt children.

45:02.444 --> 45:12.958
[SPEAKER_00]: But I knew that was a part of my personal healing of getting to freedom so that I could also speak that if that were to come up in a situation that was similar as mine.

45:13.479 --> 45:19.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'll tell you a little bit about the story that very few people know.

45:20.264 --> 45:47.807
[SPEAKER_00]: And right after I spoke and I went and did the conference what not I was thinking it was over 30 years after I had gotten out of the abuse I get a call this was just about three months after I stepped on stage I got a call from the attorney general in this state that said I need you to come testify in court against this guy.

45:48.310 --> 45:51.375
[SPEAKER_00]: all these years later because he's up to no good again.

45:51.415 --> 46:06.117
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if I wouldn't have gone through forgiveness in my heart truly, I would have went into court with a vengeance heart because I had always believed if I ever see this man again, it's going to be the end of his life.

46:06.738 --> 46:08.040
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where I was at.

46:08.628 --> 46:25.053
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I will do whatever it takes to protect children from getting hurt this way, but I knew in that moment that I could go into court with a heart that was healed and do it the way that it needed to be done and I did.

46:25.974 --> 46:36.390
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think, you know, for me and my journey and how God really navigated me, I had to do it the way that I did it to get to where I was.

46:37.248 --> 46:55.493
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's powerful, you know, and I think for myself, one of the things that I had to do in the letting go process and the forgiveness it was for my mother for my grandmother for the teachers for I mean it was just like a laundry list of people I was just like I have to forgive and let go doesn't mean I forget.

46:55.473 --> 46:56.595
[SPEAKER_01]: I've not forgotten.

46:56.615 --> 46:59.659
[SPEAKER_01]: I looked down at my hand every day from my mother cutting my finger off.

46:59.739 --> 47:06.289
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not lost on me, you know, and I think that so many people think that you have to pretend it didn't happen.

47:06.349 --> 47:10.215
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're right back into the sewage of it all.

47:10.235 --> 47:16.384
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think forgiveness is powerful because it also allows you to love people.

47:16.364 --> 47:29.395
[SPEAKER_01]: like it allows you to love it allows other people to love you it allows the the greatest experiences that you can have as a human you know there there's there's all of the moments of my look at it like this there are.

47:30.303 --> 47:38.631
[SPEAKER_01]: all of the moments of my life before me telling the story about being molested and abused as a child and there's every moment after.

47:38.671 --> 47:49.761
[SPEAKER_01]: And every moment after I can promise you is so much better because the secret's not there and the pain isn't there and the turmoil and the suffering isn't there.

47:50.062 --> 47:52.124
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't mean I have fucking bad days, man.

47:52.144 --> 47:53.065
[SPEAKER_01]: Trust me, I do, sir.

47:53.105 --> 47:55.447
[SPEAKER_01]: Still days where I'm like, yo, it's crazy.

47:56.448 --> 47:59.871
[SPEAKER_01]: But most of the time life is pretty good.

47:59.851 --> 48:00.573
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

48:00.933 --> 48:03.479
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just facing that scary thing in front of you.

48:03.499 --> 48:09.011
[SPEAKER_01]: I am super excited for you because I know that you have a brand new book coming out.

48:09.593 --> 48:16.408
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want you to share a little bit more about that, why you wrote it, whose it's for, and where everyone can find it.

48:16.608 --> 48:18.651
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the book is called The Breaker.

48:18.892 --> 48:20.855
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is this is my story.

48:20.875 --> 48:24.681
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a mix of my story mixed with healing.

48:25.242 --> 48:29.308
[SPEAKER_00]: We have some amazing contributors that are in the book through the process.

48:29.769 --> 48:35.157
[SPEAKER_00]: We became really good friends with the top people over at Arizona trauma institute.

48:35.137 --> 48:37.521
[SPEAKER_00]: they opened up their curriculum to us.

48:37.581 --> 48:43.913
[SPEAKER_00]: They were just blown away by the fact of what my story was and they were going to give us the research side of things.

48:43.993 --> 48:51.527
[SPEAKER_00]: The legitimate, you know, the hearts and guts of what is going on in this space so the people could understand it from that side too.

48:52.108 --> 48:58.039
[SPEAKER_00]: The really unique thing about my book is, is my story you're taking this journey with a boy from

48:58.019 --> 49:10.277
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the abuse that happens to success and finally hope and freedom, but my wife is actually the author of the book and she writes it in a way that also showcases her perspective.

49:10.857 --> 49:21.753
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's speaking to the wife for the family member, what not that has someone who is going through this or has gone through this on what to do as well.

49:21.813 --> 49:25.258
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have the healing steps, the story itself,

49:25.576 --> 49:34.289
[SPEAKER_00]: The research behind all of that and then really the other side and the other lens, which is the person who loves that person that is hurting and what to do.

49:34.890 --> 49:40.559
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this book is called the breaker, get on the breaker mission.com, but we're on Amazon, we're in.

49:40.619 --> 49:45.226
[SPEAKER_00]: We just got the green light that will be on in some barns and nobles nationwide.

49:45.907 --> 49:50.153
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I mean, there's a mission behind it too, which is the big thing.

49:50.173 --> 49:54.520
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have the book and then a mission that we're building right now that it's.

49:54.871 --> 49:59.361
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a really good place in a resource for those men and women too.

49:59.682 --> 50:04.913
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm speaking to men a lot just because it's my story, but it will help women as well.

50:05.274 --> 50:14.314
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a mission behind that that that that can give them those resources necessary to get to the place of freedom that they need to.

50:14.885 --> 50:15.726
[SPEAKER_01]: Brilliant.

50:15.906 --> 50:29.622
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that and I'm so excited for you and for everyone who reads it and guys remember you can go to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com, look up Micah's episode for that information and more in show notes.

50:30.403 --> 50:31.785
[SPEAKER_01]: My last question for you, my friend.

50:32.525 --> 50:35.108
[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to you to be unbroken?

50:35.148 --> 50:40.875
[SPEAKER_00]: The word that comes to mind is just it's it's freedom.

50:41.395 --> 50:47.302
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, I looked at what I went through as like a puzzle that was put together.

50:47.342 --> 50:52.228
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I went through everything that I went through, it was scattered and it was broken.

50:52.328 --> 50:55.371
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I had lost pieces and whatnot.

50:55.571 --> 51:09.968
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to be able to get to a place now through my faith and through the healing that I went through and all the tools and lifelines that God gave me to now really truly feel as if even though it was broken at one point.

51:10.285 --> 51:17.151
[SPEAKER_00]: And I am free from what is there and now being on the other side being able to speak into men to help them get unbroken and free too.

51:18.893 --> 51:20.535
[SPEAKER_01]: Brilliant, and I love that, man.

51:20.995 --> 51:38.031
[SPEAKER_01]: My hope is that for all of you listening, if you are that man or if you know a man or someone in your life who could use today's episode and conversation, I encourage you to share this with them with a loving kind heart, knowing that they might tell you to go fuck yourself.

51:38.011 --> 51:51.208
[SPEAKER_01]: because the reality is this is a very hard journey and it's one that's not easily spoken about and that's why there have not been a lot of men in a thousand episodes of this podcast to have come on and shared such a vulnerable experience.

51:51.228 --> 52:05.065
[SPEAKER_01]: My hope is that we can give this to more men to more women and to heal this world because a big part of my story, something I've mentioned many times over the years, is I want to change the world so much that another child does it have

52:05.045 --> 52:09.899
[SPEAKER_01]: But we can't do that if we're a bunch of adults walking around like hurt little boys and girls.

52:10.480 --> 52:12.947
[SPEAKER_01]: With that said, my friends, thank you so much for being here.

52:12.968 --> 52:14.271
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of yourselves.

52:14.753 --> 52:15.495
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of each other.

52:15.535 --> 52:18.704
[SPEAKER_01]: And until next time, be unbroken.

52:19.326 --> 52:19.847
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll see ya.