How ADHD Is Secretly Affecting Your Relationships with Melissa Thompson

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[SPEAKER_02]: You're listening to the Think Unbroken Podcast and I'm your host, Michael and Broken.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an author, speaker, coach, and advocate for adult survivors of childhood trauma and abuse.

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[SPEAKER_02]: In this podcast, you will learn how to transform your trauma in the triumph, turn breakdowns into breakthroughs, and go from victim to being the hero of your own story.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You can learn more at Think UnbrokenPonCast.com and of course, check us out on Apple Podcasts and Spotify at Think Unbroken Podcast.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Hilling relationships sometimes require to do deeper work than you even could imagine.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it's just me, maybe it's my algorithm, which probably is me if it's my algorithm.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But I tend to see a couple of things right now, which I think are really funny.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Age gap relationships, ADHD.

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[SPEAKER_02]: healing relationships, entrepreneurship, and anime.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If that tells you anything about my life, that's where I'm at.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I happen to see this amazing post with today's guest, Melissa DeVaris Thompson, who I was just like, I have to ask this person to come and be on the podcast, because as someone with ADHD who did not trade it for ever, she kept talking about these indicators that one might want to consider if in a relationship.

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[SPEAKER_02]: with someone or if you do have ADHD and I was like, oh shit, this is all me before I started trading myself.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'd like to welcome Melissa to the show as we're going to dip and dive into that and how to repair relationships.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We have this is probably going to be one of the best episodes we've done a long time.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But let's welcome my friend.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm thrilled.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I want to start first just with kind of your background because I

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, it started way back in the day when I went to my first therapy session, and I felt as if an adult took my emotion seriously, and...

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[SPEAKER_03]: I was changed ever since.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I felt like I wanted to be in that world.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to hear people's stories.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to learn about resilience and what made them heal.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I started the journey of becoming a therapist.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And that sort of put me on this journey.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And as I was working in San Francisco and New York City,

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[SPEAKER_03]: My practice became fuller and more full and I couldn't see more people so I decided to merge into a group practice and now I have a few therapists who work for me and we are quite similarly trained and I love what I do.

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[SPEAKER_02]: nice.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love what you do, too.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think as as someone, you know, I'm not a therapist, but having been a coach in the childhood trauma space for decade and honestly before anybody was doing it, there was like two of us.

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[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I've always been a few

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[SPEAKER_02]: you can't just have coaching.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the reasons that for me, therapy was so practical early on and gestalt especially was because I could start to make meaning of experiences.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But the one thing that I always got stuck in was the relationship side of it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's too fold and the audience knows this and so I'll blind side you a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But I grew up with drug addict alcoholic parents, homeless as a kid lived in 30 different homes, a score of 10, ADHD, learning disability dyslexia, the whole nine and you know,

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[SPEAKER_02]: life was insane.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so my measure of healthy dynamics and relationships were yelling, screaming, fighting, cheating, arguing, hurting each other, fraud, you name it, you see it, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I've spent, I would argue, I have spent more time as a coach, understanding human dynamics in our personally then directly like what on one, because it, our relationships are so much more

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, on it, you might agree with this.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You show me how someone communicates in their relationship.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I will show you what fuck them up as a kid, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm really curious.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And in the scope of everything that you're doing, why do you work with couples?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, why is that important to you?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And why do you work with individuals specifically in relationships?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because what people do understand the depth and the breadth of why especially this work is so important.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I have heard a lot of the years of being a couple therapists and obviously I see individuals too around, you know, their inner new relationship, things start to happen and they don't understand what's happening for them, what's happening for their partner, we can go through the world and do our own healing and then we get into relationship with somebody and whoop, there's some unprocessed baggage.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of times I kept hearing, well, you know, you're not with that person anymore, you're not living with your mom anymore, you're dad anymore, you know, sorry I had that tone, you know, it sounds like you're dad, but I'm not your dad.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so that to me is where there's so much opportunity for growth and for healing that really comes to the surface when you're in relationship and I find that piece particularly fascinating.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of work you can do on your own.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And there are people obviously who do not want to be in partnership, and that's fine too.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But coming into relationship is where rubber really hits the road.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And when you have two nervous systems that may have unprocessed trauma or disregulated systems, trying to make things work, especially after the honeymoon phase has worn off, they can get very interesting.

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[SPEAKER_02]: how much of like working through that is like choice?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think about this a lot.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I, for the couple of relationships, I happen to have in the last decade, they kind of ended at irreconcilable differences, which was a thing that I didn't think was real until I got there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: When I was younger, relationships ended because of lying, cheating, fraud, stilling, being mean to each other, all the things

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[SPEAKER_02]: the nurturing process of growing up in the home that I grew up in.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I got to this other side of it where I was like, you know what?

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to fight to the death for this.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, no matter what, I'm going to do my best to figure this out.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Until we get to the precipice of that there's nothing to do, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Air reconcilable.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I keep having this conversation with friends, some who are single, some who are dating, as a single man who is dating, I'm running into this as well.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like we somehow turned a corner and I don't think this is exclusively only an internet meme kind of situation.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I think this is a side all thing where we have now turned a corner where we are throwing each other

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[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's actually destroying people's confidence and their ability to actually connect with other human beings.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it feels like the instant gratification generation of something doesn't work well, then it must not be or, you know, this person didn't do this perfectly well, you know, relationship shouldn't be this hard we've only been dating for X amount of time so I think there is just kind of a sense out there also with dating online it's quite different you're scrolling through feeds and pictures and choosing people.

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[SPEAKER_03]: in this way, sort of different than in real life, which can lead to feeling more disposable or that didn't work next.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I think the other premise is that I hear a lot in my practice that should it be this difficult?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Should it be this difficult?

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[SPEAKER_03]: We've only been dating for, you know, whether it's five weeks or five months or a year or five years, should it really be this hard?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so when you talk about choice,

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[SPEAKER_03]: I do think it takes two people wanting to work on the relationship to make it work.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And unfortunately, being in a diet in the way that we're talking about relationships now, if one person is not interested in that, it's sort of potentially can make the whole thing fall apart.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So it has to have two willing participants in that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's kind of walk up path here because I think this might be beneficial because I want to go from dating to interrelationship to fighting interrelationship to fixing the relationship to a long-term success of relationship, right, if we were to look up these kind of markers.

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[SPEAKER_02]: in the very beginning, let's say, whether online or in person, which I don't do on, I gave up online, I'm like, I'm done with this, this world is a complete mess, not because I don't think that there's opportunity there, but also it's a huge distraction and it's murdering your dopamine.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I talked to Dr. Anna Lemke about that a few years ago, and as I, I got to protect my dopamine.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What should people be contemplating, considering thinking about when they're starting dating?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what are the most important things that they should be bringing into consideration?

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[SPEAKER_03]: To me, it feels like the first question to ask is, are you ready to date?

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's a very important question that a lot of people look past, whether they're healing from heartbreak or whether they have certain expectations that they need to date somebody that fits a certain description like down to a letter, down to the T.

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[SPEAKER_03]: and if that doesn't happen, then it won't work.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I think asking yourself the question, am I ready to date?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Am I ready to open myself up?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Am I ready to have an open mind and to show up with somebody human to human?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Not necessarily, will this be the person I'll be with for the rest of my life?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Are they my life partner?

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[SPEAKER_03]: But really human to human and can I arrive with curiosity and openness?

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's the first question.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I often tell clients what I find is helpful.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds maybe a little silly, but really coming from a depth first perspective of thinking about your three must tabs and your three can't stands.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't mean.

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[SPEAKER_03]: They need to be an astronaut and driver Mercedes.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean deeper things.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Like I have to have somebody who's loyal.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I have to have somebody who's not gonna lie to me.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Like these foundational pieces, I think getting really clear on are super important before you ever meet up with somebody.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So that's where I would start.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What are the lies that people are telling themselves that you seem to kind of see that people get caught up on once they're actually in the relationship?

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[SPEAKER_02]: What are the things they could have avoided in this clarity that you see maybe with frequency?

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think part of it is the expectations that they'll meet somebody and that love will be enough and that those butterfly feelings or that attraction or that excitement will get them through the rest of their lives.

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[SPEAKER_03]: If that's what they want.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Again, some people don't want long-term relationships, but I think that's part of it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think the other piece is people go into relationships feeling like when I meet that person, I will feel complete.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I will feel healed.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I will feel fully happy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I need this in order to complete my life and I certainly for one always wanted to be in partnership and when I met my husband I definitely felt like it added to my life but I had a very full life before I met him and so it wasn't necessary like I had to have him in order to live my life and I think that's a big misconception of people.

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[SPEAKER_03]: With that said, I think a lot of people fall into the trap of what's wrong with me if I can't be with somebody or if I am single and I want to be with somebody and I haven't found that person.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, as a guy who's a huge fan of rom-coms, learning in real life and real time that love is not enough is like a real moment and that's what you can discover, like wait a second, there's like a depth here of like actually having to do hard things of being able to navigate this.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was such, I mean, God, I remember, I wasn't a really ship during the COVID times.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought this is my person.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to spend the rest of our life together.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I was like, it's just the non-negotiables that you just talked about, we're not there.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that we had done a good enough job of understanding how to express that to each other.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so long enough, time line that catches up.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I realize we both had walls up.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like we could not let each other in for certain levels of depth, because like vulnerability is a real thing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, now we're heading to six years ago, and which is crazy.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Has it been six years ago?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Six years ago.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my goodness.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And so in the span of six years of data, I was in a short term relationship, but I've learned how to be massively more vulnerable.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I realized that I started reading Tara Brock's book again, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love her.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of three books I make every one of my clients read and so because it's been such a powerful tool for me and I'm reading it and I was like, you know what, I'm just going deeper vulnerability.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've got a steam here.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to someone who they're starting their dating process?

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[SPEAKER_02]: They've met somebody, things are going well.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But then they get scared and the wall starts to go up.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They can't explain it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: They don't know why they can't let anyone in or maybe as in.

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[SPEAKER_02]: as they want them to be, and we're talking about this path from dating along terms of successful relationship.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And they're in the beginning, how do you never get that space?

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[SPEAKER_02]: We're like, I don't want this wall.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I know this wall's here, I want to be seen, but I'm scared.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think it goes back to again that question of am I ready and then doing some of the work before you're in the activated state of oh my gosh I like this person and now the walls up and now I'm here so if you know you have a wall can you do some work around whether it's journaling or going to therapy or talking to your best friend whatever works.

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[SPEAKER_03]: or your own thoughts doing meditation and really sitting with where is the wall coming from?

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[SPEAKER_03]: What part of me is putting up a wall?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Because it may not be all of you.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There may be the part of you that's so ready and available and wanting to be in relationship.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And then there may be this part of you that's really afraid what if I let the wall down and they see the real me and they don't like it?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Like that is terrifying to a lot of people.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Talk about vulnerability.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, if they know from like a mind perspective that vulnerability, oh, that's kind of what I'm supposed to do and I'm supposed to show up on the date and be myself and, you know, if it doesn't work out, then it would never meant to be, we know that in our minds and putting that into practice is so difficult.

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[SPEAKER_03]: It can be so, so difficult.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, the first step is being curious.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Where is the wall come from?

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[SPEAKER_03]: What part of you is putting up that wall?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And are you willing to sit with it?

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, maybe on some of the dates you can't put the wall all the way down, but you could share something that is a little bit

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[SPEAKER_03]: kind of put your toe in and you know this with trauma work and things like that can you can you try it a little bit at a time versus you know either trying to get the wall all the way down or shaming yourself into what's wrong with you just put the wall down it's not that big of a deal and if you're on the other side of it what what kind of container do you create for that person.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of times, if you're on a new date or you're in a dating situation and you don't know this person sitting across from you, it is really hard to kind of know kind of how to show up and what your expectations are and who you should show up as.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But a general rule of thumb is, can you be curious?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Can you be curious without putting that person on the witness stand feeling like, oh my gosh, there's keep peppermy with questions.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But just to slow your own nervous system, to regulate your own nervous system, to know that we're just human to human, getting together, and getting to know each other, and being curious and open.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And if it doesn't work, that's okay.

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[SPEAKER_03]: If it does work, great, we'll go out again, just that sense of ease and regulating your

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I found like as a podcast host and as like I'm just naturally inquisitive and I've learned to be a question asker and not a problem solver when I'm dating someone said every man ever in history.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and so I'm curious let's before we move into are you ready for the relationship right you're getting know each other things are working well maybe you're connected mentally emotionally physically spiritually you have some same views on sex and finances you're like ready to go that next step but you got ADHD

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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about what don't we understand and what is misunderstood about ADHD and the way that people date in the impact that it has on relationships and intimacy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think right now is more than ever.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about ADHD.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think people, I don't have a statistic, and I don't know, this is just my opinion in what I've seen, is that there's way more awareness now about ADHD than there ever was, and there's way more awareness about adults with ADHD that were never diagnosed or maybe misdiagnosed as children.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So,

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[SPEAKER_03]: We're living in a world where that is coming up and you know, some people may argue, oh, it's over diagnosed.

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[SPEAKER_03]: In my perspective, in my opinion, if it's something that resonates, it could be very helpful to understand how you show up.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And it could be very, very helpful for your partner to understand how you show up.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So,

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think that not understanding ADHD is where a lot of relationships can start to feel like they're going off the tracks a little bit and neither want to say anything and the person who doesn't have it is wondering what's going on or they interested in me, do they even like me?

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[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I think that's part of it.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that we talk enough about it in relationships to be honest.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I part of it, I understand it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand like the impulsivity that I had.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand my lack of being able to be focused in it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand so many things.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I got diagnosed relatively young.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think a lot of kids who come from traumatic backgrounds do.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I knew to try to treat it, but you know, when I, I just had this aversion to pharmaceuticals.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, my mother was addicted to oxy cotton.

18:10.511 --> 18:15.959
[SPEAKER_02]: She was a big part that took her life eventually and, and so I stared away from it.

18:15.979 --> 18:21.166
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I was listening to Dr. Daniel Aiman and he said something really fascinating.

18:21.447 --> 18:23.350
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and that was like almost permission.

18:23.510 --> 18:24.351
[SPEAKER_02]: He said,

18:24.331 --> 18:28.397
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you wouldn't tell someone who had vision problems to not wear glasses.

18:28.817 --> 18:32.362
[SPEAKER_02]: So why would you tell someone with ADHD to not take prescriptions?

18:33.163 --> 18:37.549
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh my god, finally I can let go of this shame that I have around this.

18:38.070 --> 18:43.577
[SPEAKER_02]: And I started taking at a very, very low dose and oh my god, my life is so different.

18:43.778 --> 18:45.680
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's not even, I'm not the same person.

18:45.800 --> 18:47.082
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's wild.

18:47.568 --> 18:54.695
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was just going to say, I have a child with ADHD, and the doctor said something very similar to me, like if you need glasses, why wouldn't you get them?

18:54.755 --> 18:57.558
[SPEAKER_03]: You would just not get them at all because you need them.

18:58.239 --> 19:14.335
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I, as a therapist, obviously, I can't prescribe, I'm not recommending medication, but if it's something to go and get an evaluation on and somebody's open to it, it could be, in like in your example, life changing, where it's normalized and it's actually very

19:14.315 --> 19:23.833
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do think that, you know, getting awareness around it and getting, did you end up getting like a formal diagnosis, did you end up going to do it?

19:24.114 --> 19:24.434
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

19:24.514 --> 19:25.316
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

19:25.697 --> 19:25.957
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

19:26.077 --> 19:26.338
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

19:26.618 --> 19:26.859
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

19:27.079 --> 19:27.560
[SPEAKER_03]: That's amazing.

19:27.580 --> 19:29.604
[SPEAKER_03]: And you found that it's been life changing.

19:30.325 --> 19:31.227
[SPEAKER_02]: For you.

19:31.207 --> 19:45.888
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, different in business, different in friendships, different in my health, different in, because it before, this was my analogy before I was atlas this every day, it's the boulder every day and it was just was exhausted all the time.

19:46.308 --> 19:53.839
[SPEAKER_02]: It would take me four hours to do something that takes four fucking minutes and the impulsivity of like,

19:53.819 --> 20:09.499
[SPEAKER_02]: dating this person and dating that person and then wanting this and wanting that and moving over here and all these different fractions it went away and so it but here was a crazy part whenever I dated someone with ADHD I'm like oh man this feels so normal because they're crazy

20:10.492 --> 20:12.597
[SPEAKER_03]: There was a resonance for you.

20:12.617 --> 20:13.199
[SPEAKER_02]: There was.

20:13.499 --> 20:16.968
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some tools that people should consider when they're in the data?

20:16.988 --> 20:27.133
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, we're going to move into the RWP for the relationship, but in the dating phase of their, especially if they're dating some of ADHD, what do they really need to take into consideration?

20:27.518 --> 20:30.344
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, it depends on where you are in the journey of ADHD.

20:30.364 --> 20:34.111
[SPEAKER_03]: Some people may know, I probably have something, but I don't really want to look at it.

20:34.211 --> 20:37.798
[SPEAKER_03]: Some people may get diagnosed and really embrace that diagnosis.

20:37.818 --> 20:41.385
[SPEAKER_03]: So it depends on where you are in your journey around that.

20:41.806 --> 20:45.493
[SPEAKER_03]: But let's just say you know you have ADHD, you've been tested.

20:45.473 --> 20:46.194
[SPEAKER_03]: all the things.

20:46.535 --> 20:48.217
[SPEAKER_03]: And you're showing up in relationship.

20:48.237 --> 20:51.803
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the biggest piece is can you again it comes back to this vulnerability piece?

20:51.863 --> 20:55.028
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you again be vulnerable with your partner and share?

20:55.088 --> 20:59.154
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't just, you know, ADHD and we kind of swipe it under the rug.

20:59.194 --> 21:00.977
[SPEAKER_03]: This actually impacts me day today.

21:01.077 --> 21:08.308
[SPEAKER_03]: And what you'll notice is x, y, and z. I'll either be really focused into something, or I'll be really distracted.

21:08.288 --> 21:15.900
[SPEAKER_03]: or, you know, my forgetfulness might feel like rejection, but, you know, this is what I need in order to stay on track.

21:15.980 --> 21:26.217
[SPEAKER_03]: So, a lot of times in relationship, things like distraction or forgetfulness, can land up as, oh, your partner feeling like, do they even care about me, do they even want to be in this?

21:26.237 --> 21:28.701
[SPEAKER_03]: So, to me, it's education is first.

21:28.721 --> 21:30.103
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, how vulnerable can I be?

21:30.344 --> 21:33.148
[SPEAKER_03]: How much can I share with my partner and be really open?

21:33.128 --> 21:39.700
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, not only about ADHD and how it shows up for you because it does show up similarly, but a little different for everybody.

21:39.720 --> 21:45.350
[SPEAKER_03]: And then sort of things that you may need in the process of being in relationship.

21:46.011 --> 21:49.818
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the needs part is tough because that means you have to actually state them.

21:50.319 --> 21:50.720
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

21:51.241 --> 21:52.523
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, first you have to recognize them.

21:52.603 --> 21:54.987
[SPEAKER_03]: First you have to recognize what is it that I need.

21:55.127 --> 21:57.111
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you have to state them, yes.

21:57.209 --> 22:01.214
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's where most people are blocked because especially depending on how you grew up.

22:01.254 --> 22:10.865
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you grew up in America and everything starts with your elementary school, raise your hand to go to the bathroom, like, I'm like, whoa, you're, you're not a link for yourself, right?

22:10.885 --> 22:11.266
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.

22:11.286 --> 22:11.606
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

22:11.726 --> 22:13.388
[SPEAKER_02]: And so just quick.

22:13.449 --> 22:22.980
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a really special parlay we can move into just briefly, how does someone assess needs to be able to say, hey, this is what matters.

22:23.112 --> 22:30.609
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think with ADHD, sometimes can also come with some shame, and maybe some lack of understanding fully what's going on.

22:30.629 --> 22:32.774
[SPEAKER_03]: So first is about, can you get educated yourself?

22:33.415 --> 22:41.914
[SPEAKER_03]: And can you do the work yourself to really get clear that this isn't something that should be shameful, even though a lot of people feel embarrassed about it or shameful?

22:41.894 --> 22:50.025
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of people, you know, we talk about with my child, we talk about masking and school, you know, who goes to school and he masks and kind of tries to muscle through school.

22:50.505 --> 22:58.636
[SPEAKER_03]: The same can be true in relationship where I'm going to just try and pull it all together when I'm with this person and I'm not going to show them any signs of that or what have you.

22:58.816 --> 23:08.509
[SPEAKER_03]: And so to me, it feels like getting educated first, working on the self-compassion piece and self-accepting piece.

23:08.489 --> 23:20.645
[SPEAKER_03]: and then being clear and working with your partner who my hope is they really love you, adore you, like you want to be with you, that this information would not be a turn off.

23:20.705 --> 23:22.607
[SPEAKER_03]: This would actually feel like, wow, what a gift.

23:22.647 --> 23:23.969
[SPEAKER_03]: I actually know what you need.

23:24.009 --> 23:24.870
[SPEAKER_03]: Like thank you.

23:25.050 --> 23:25.371
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

23:25.951 --> 23:27.253
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for sharing this with me.

23:27.333 --> 23:34.362
[SPEAKER_03]: So that the two of you can work together as opposed to you feeling like you're alone trying to muscle through this or mask through it.

23:34.342 --> 23:34.963
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

23:35.605 --> 23:42.741
[SPEAKER_02]: Or if you're like me and your crazy person, you put together a list called the 66 questions you should ask before you get a relationship with someone.

23:43.302 --> 23:44.144
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.

23:44.404 --> 23:45.306
[SPEAKER_02]: That helps too.

23:45.567 --> 23:46.389
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, it's real.

23:46.409 --> 23:47.611
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I wrote this thing.

23:47.692 --> 23:51.540
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about I realize when there's like, okay.

23:51.959 --> 23:55.404
[SPEAKER_02]: without the right questions, you will end up in a wrong place.

23:56.065 --> 23:58.148
[SPEAKER_02]: And that happened to me, and I was like, okay, wait a second.

23:58.468 --> 24:15.553
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I just foundationally create this space of, all right, if this how I see relationships, the potential for them, I think, all human experiences tend to overlap in the relationship spectrum, my opinion, in six categories, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, sexual and financial.

24:15.533 --> 24:28.411
[SPEAKER_02]: And my thesis, my hypothesis is, if you can get to 75% of seeing the world through the same window with your person, that's a freaking passing grade, and you're gonna be good.

24:29.393 --> 24:32.076
[SPEAKER_02]: But they're very uncomfortable questions.

24:32.657 --> 24:32.978
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?

24:33.358 --> 24:41.390
[SPEAKER_02]: Because again, that thing about seeing someone, I think that's how you avoid probably where people end up in your office, right?

24:41.450 --> 24:43.853
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that you still shouldn't, but you get my point.

24:43.833 --> 24:54.712
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say you're walking through the path, you're connected, you're at that 75% like man, we've talked about some hard things, I can see a future and now you're in the relationship.

24:55.073 --> 25:00.222
[SPEAKER_02]: What are people in 2026 getting brutally wrong about relationships?

25:00.286 --> 25:04.994
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think a lot of people think that relationships should be easy and no one should argue.

25:05.014 --> 25:09.702
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's one of the biggest pieces, is that again, going back to what I said earlier.

25:09.762 --> 25:16.113
[SPEAKER_03]: If you love each other, if you're looking through the lens of 75% connected, then why do we argue?

25:16.173 --> 25:16.934
[SPEAKER_03]: We shouldn't argue.

25:16.974 --> 25:17.475
[SPEAKER_03]: That's bad.

25:17.515 --> 25:19.358
[SPEAKER_03]: That's wrong, you know.

25:19.338 --> 25:40.121
[SPEAKER_03]: And to me, and to the psychologist, John Gottman, who is wonderful with his scientific research, he talks about how you can decipher whether a couple will stay together, not necessarily by the argument that they had, but if they come back and repair after the conversation, and what that means is you come back to the table once you're regulated.

25:40.181 --> 25:41.723
[SPEAKER_03]: I always have to use that little caveat.

25:41.743 --> 25:42.544
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not.

25:42.524 --> 25:48.331
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not gonna back to the table when you're still wanting to scream and yell or still shut down or just regulate it.

25:48.352 --> 25:56.642
[SPEAKER_03]: But once you're regulated, coming back to the table and saying, you know what, I didn't handle that well or I don't wanna argue with you, can we try again?

25:56.682 --> 26:08.277
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember when I first met my husband in San Francisco back in the day, I was in therapy, I was going through therapy school and I went to see my therapist and I thought, this guy, like, he's so different than me.

26:08.297 --> 26:12.042
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how, I mean, he's amazing, but I mean, how are we gonna make this work?

26:12.022 --> 26:14.305
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was so much of us first coming together.

26:14.325 --> 26:17.790
[SPEAKER_03]: It was her teaching us how to come back and repair after a hard moment.

26:18.290 --> 26:21.535
[SPEAKER_03]: And it doesn't have to be a yelling match or anything like that.

26:21.595 --> 26:34.012
[SPEAKER_03]: It could just be where you felt dropped by somebody or where you felt like there was a bid for connection that just didn't get handled well or a misstep of some kind, coming back to the table and trying to work it through is huge.

26:34.072 --> 26:35.353
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in what a lot of people are.

26:35.654 --> 26:38.097
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe not focusing on as much as they should.

26:38.887 --> 26:44.796
[SPEAKER_02]: why do people have this notion that they're not meant to be fighting in a relationship?

26:44.816 --> 26:45.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Where did that come from?

26:46.037 --> 26:47.600
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a great question.

26:47.640 --> 26:48.922
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it comes from a few places.

26:48.982 --> 26:52.807
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it can always come from popular culture, TV, rom-coms, you mentioned that earlier.

26:52.827 --> 27:05.586
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it can also come from, you know, if you're fighting a family that was really intense in the fighting department as you mentioned that you had, you can see that and then you can also grow up in a family that never

27:05.566 --> 27:09.754
[SPEAKER_03]: never talked about heart emotions and that's sort of swinging from one pendulum to the next.

27:09.795 --> 27:21.398
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't think a lot of us get healthy models for what it looks like to actually have conflict in a relationship and then see the resolution after that.

27:21.462 --> 27:26.848
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think even from the youngest age just going back to the school thing, conflict resolution and childhood is detention.

27:27.529 --> 27:49.174
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that's like such a crazy notion to me, where you have all of these children who now are basically adult children who don't know how to be like, hey, you hurt my feelings because in school they're like, go to detention right on the bright sentences that are so arbitrary, they carry no meaning.

27:49.154 --> 27:51.098
[SPEAKER_02]: because you imagine being with your husband.

27:51.138 --> 27:53.402
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, you need to write a hundred times or sorry.

27:53.442 --> 27:55.266
[SPEAKER_02]: You think like what the fuck?

27:55.286 --> 27:56.568
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's not enough of it.

27:56.588 --> 27:57.189
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, no sense.

27:57.390 --> 27:58.572
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely not.

27:58.712 --> 28:00.015
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to learn anything from that.

28:00.035 --> 28:01.758
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not going to understand each other from that.

28:01.778 --> 28:06.948
[SPEAKER_03]: There's not going to be a deeper understanding walking away from this to just do something like that.

28:07.048 --> 28:07.910
[SPEAKER_03]: But you're absolutely right.

28:09.132 --> 28:12.158
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we're in this, you know, because I think that

28:14.483 --> 28:16.345
[SPEAKER_02]: you cannot get away from emotions.

28:16.726 --> 28:18.347
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you do, they will come back.

28:18.808 --> 28:19.789
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I know.

28:19.849 --> 28:20.970
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

28:21.151 --> 28:23.914
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I spent, I mean, it's funny.

28:23.954 --> 28:27.358
[SPEAKER_02]: I had to have a very hard conversation with an ex-girlfriend.

28:28.319 --> 28:32.744
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like I owed it to her because I hadn't done the work.

28:33.004 --> 28:36.528
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I had to kind of ran her over in a lot of ways.

28:36.749 --> 28:39.212
[SPEAKER_02]: And this was, you know, this is 15 years ago.

28:39.252 --> 28:41.054
[SPEAKER_02]: So different experience.

28:41.074 --> 28:43.917
[SPEAKER_02]: But the conversation was recent because I felt like,

28:43.897 --> 28:45.641
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, I want to have that conversation.

28:46.122 --> 28:53.457
[SPEAKER_02]: And I realized I was living exactly how my parents had taught me how to communicate.

28:53.958 --> 28:58.287
[SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't know that she was feeling unsafe about communication.

28:58.307 --> 29:00.792
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that she thought I was an asshole.

29:00.772 --> 29:02.434
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just like, this is who I am.

29:02.534 --> 29:03.596
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, take it and leave it.

29:03.696 --> 29:04.297
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm right.

29:04.357 --> 29:04.957
[SPEAKER_02]: No, exactly.

29:04.978 --> 29:09.684
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is the most dangerous sentence anyone could ever say to a person by the way, right?

29:10.084 --> 29:15.732
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then there's this part about, okay, you want to repair, you got to start with you.

29:16.433 --> 29:24.383
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's a huge fear that people have and going down that path of the self-hilling journey because there's this,

29:24.363 --> 29:28.469
[SPEAKER_02]: feeling in society where it's like you have to go to therapy to get better, right?

29:28.529 --> 29:31.293
[SPEAKER_02]: Where you have to go to coaching so that your life can change.

29:31.593 --> 29:35.980
[SPEAKER_02]: And they don't realize that it might take fucking 15 years to have the conversation.

29:37.141 --> 29:43.490
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we get people to feel encouraged and not dissuade from this journey?

29:43.851 --> 29:44.031
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

29:44.051 --> 29:48.818
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think we live in such a weird space right now for all of this.

29:49.017 --> 29:58.930
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I do, I mean, depending on what you're healing and being a therapist for a very long time, healing can take as long as it takes, you know, it's sort of, everybody's journey is unique.

29:59.691 --> 30:06.740
[SPEAKER_03]: I also, I'm, I'm a believer in people find their way to what they need to heal in the ways that make sense and work for them.

30:07.261 --> 30:15.852
[SPEAKER_03]: So for some people that is therapy, for some people that is talking to their pastor at church, for some people that's meditation, for some people that's best friend.

30:15.832 --> 30:33.163
[SPEAKER_03]: So whatever it is to get you on that healing journey again, I think it comes from the bravery and the courage to be able to sit with yourself and to look at yourself, whether it's thinking you have a diagnosis of ADHD or why do the walls go up or what comes up for me in relationships?

30:33.243 --> 30:35.066
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do I not feel good about myself?

30:35.167 --> 30:37.671
[SPEAKER_03]: Why am I thinking that I'm less man?

30:37.651 --> 30:39.954
[SPEAKER_03]: To me, it's all about being able to face yourself.

30:40.355 --> 30:47.886
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, Tara Brock talks a lot about that, about being present, with yourself and compassionate and loving and knowing, guess what?

30:47.946 --> 30:49.989
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I say this all the time, guess what?

30:50.510 --> 30:51.992
[SPEAKER_03]: We're all going through something.

30:52.052 --> 30:53.674
[SPEAKER_03]: You think that people have it all together?

30:53.774 --> 30:54.395
[SPEAKER_03]: We don't.

30:54.936 --> 30:58.702
[SPEAKER_03]: And being a therapist, I'm on that side every day, every week.

30:59.022 --> 31:01.606
[SPEAKER_03]: Just noticing that not everybody has it together.

31:01.646 --> 31:03.208
[SPEAKER_03]: Most people don't have it together.

31:03.288 --> 31:04.570
[SPEAKER_03]: We're all human here.

31:04.904 --> 31:05.566
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't.

31:05.746 --> 31:07.831
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't mean either.

31:07.851 --> 31:10.177
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm at, I've been doing this work for 16 years.

31:10.257 --> 31:12.763
[SPEAKER_02]: I got my therapist on speed dial, you know?

31:13.224 --> 31:22.626
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, shit, I still got to deal with, you know, the entrepreneur being a public speaker, being a coach writing for books, like, that part of that is me figuring it out.

31:22.606 --> 31:23.067
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

31:23.087 --> 31:24.910
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my little dirty secret.

31:25.391 --> 31:32.803
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of like figuring out relationship dynamics is this and having conversations with you because I didn't have a marker.

31:33.204 --> 31:33.364
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

31:33.384 --> 31:38.893
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I get to sit with these experts and I get to ask questions that I wish I would have been able to ask as a kid.

31:38.873 --> 31:42.599
[SPEAKER_02]: and were or bear witness to, which is probably even more important.

31:43.039 --> 31:47.806
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I saw and this was the guiltyest thing that I did.

31:47.847 --> 31:49.709
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the word right for it.

31:49.749 --> 31:51.031
[SPEAKER_02]: But you get my points.

31:51.532 --> 31:56.780
[SPEAKER_02]: I would constantly just be like, I'm sorry, and then right back to the same behavior.

31:57.161 --> 31:57.621
[SPEAKER_02]: My bad.

31:57.922 --> 31:59.063
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

31:59.444 --> 32:00.105
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

32:01.385 --> 32:03.868
[SPEAKER_02]: How does that tend to show up in relationships?

32:03.908 --> 32:13.041
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, how do people, because I think that's the first time you're laying contextually, depending on what it is, the second time you're like, is this a pattern?

32:13.341 --> 32:15.524
[SPEAKER_02]: The third time you're like, what the fuck is going on?

32:15.745 --> 32:16.005
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

32:16.305 --> 32:19.650
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that people get into the I'm sorry space?

32:21.032 --> 32:21.352
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

32:21.612 --> 32:22.293
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you do?

32:22.333 --> 32:24.957
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you actually create conflict resolution?

32:25.157 --> 32:29.383
[SPEAKER_02]: And where does repair come on the backside of I'm sorry?

32:29.363 --> 32:29.864
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

32:30.465 --> 32:38.362
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of that has to do with your tolerance for discomfort when things are difficult in your relationships.

32:38.422 --> 32:44.976
[SPEAKER_03]: So for some people, when things are difficult in relationship, they just want to move away from it because they think it'll make it better.

32:44.956 --> 33:11.453
[SPEAKER_03]: And so maybe your version of the I'm sorry is to turn the heap down metaphorically in the relationship and get some space so that you can gather yourself so that things can just kind of go back to normal so I always recommend to people yes and I'm sorry will maybe get you a pass on a few things but after a while you're right your partner if they're tuned in are going to notice wait you keep saying you're sorry, but you keep doing the same thing so so what is that about?

33:11.433 --> 33:13.096
[SPEAKER_03]: So again, goes back to this curiosity.

33:13.136 --> 33:14.058
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I really sorry?

33:14.178 --> 33:15.340
[SPEAKER_03]: Why am I saying I'm sorry?

33:15.421 --> 33:16.803
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it because I don't want to fight with them?

33:16.843 --> 33:18.446
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it because I'm scared to fight with them?

33:18.506 --> 33:20.731
[SPEAKER_03]: Is it because I saw my parents fighting so much?

33:20.771 --> 33:25.800
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to have any of that in my life because I don't think that relationships should have conflict.

33:25.840 --> 33:29.788
[SPEAKER_03]: So let me make myself small and not have many needs and push it all down.

33:30.369 --> 33:33.475
[SPEAKER_03]: I think these are all really good questions to ask.

33:33.455 --> 33:41.109
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the other piece is, you know, the I'm sorry doesn't give you any vulnerability to offer, right?

33:41.569 --> 33:47.520
[SPEAKER_03]: Unless it's absolutely genuine, and you're like, I'm sorry, but if it's an I'm sorry to kind of get the person off your back.

33:48.662 --> 33:54.753
[SPEAKER_03]: To me, that feels like a wall, to me that feels like a defense, to me that feels like I'm not willing to go any further.

33:54.773 --> 33:55.935
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, let's move on.

33:56.708 --> 33:57.570
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was my move.

33:57.790 --> 33:58.672
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, well, this is over.

33:58.792 --> 33:59.173
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.

33:59.233 --> 33:59.814
[SPEAKER_02]: I got shit to do.

34:00.496 --> 34:01.177
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to lie.

34:01.197 --> 34:02.079
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what it was.

34:02.139 --> 34:13.603
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and and I think a lot of it again, this is just my own personal journey of recognizing this was so with these decisions were so impacted by having ADHD.

34:13.583 --> 34:43.371
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm top of like growing up in the home I grew up in and I realized one of the things I had to do is I had to actually distinguish the difference between like character issues versus nervous system issues versus neurodivergency issues because you might say to me you keep saying sorry about you're doing the same thing and I'm like that's actually who I am right maybe this is an intentional

34:43.351 --> 34:45.756
[SPEAKER_02]: And lately, we're all flawed as human beings.

34:46.076 --> 34:49.162
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have things if you leave toothpaste in the sink.

34:49.883 --> 34:53.169
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's your characteristic, I'm going to heal you.

34:53.190 --> 34:55.374
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is not going to work, right?

34:55.895 --> 34:57.638
[SPEAKER_02]: But for some people, they go, who cares?

34:57.698 --> 34:58.520
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a big deal.

34:58.560 --> 34:58.840
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

34:59.101 --> 34:59.461
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

35:00.183 --> 35:04.110
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you kind of differentiate where those live?

35:04.090 --> 35:08.259
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think it goes back to, do you like the person enough to want to make it work?

35:08.279 --> 35:10.664
[SPEAKER_03]: And are there certain things that you're willing to look over?

35:10.744 --> 35:15.113
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I do think people go into relationships and think, why do I have to compromise?

35:15.334 --> 35:19.703
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I shouldn't have to compromise who I am and what I believe in and what I stand for.

35:19.683 --> 35:27.454
[SPEAKER_03]: Not that I ever think you should do that, but relationship is always about give and take and it's always about people say like Oh, I feel like a negotiation.

35:27.494 --> 35:47.884
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it is sometimes and it's not the sexiest part of relationship But it is so you know, there's things that my husband does that drive me bananas and there are things that I do that drive him bananas And so to me it feels like is it acceptance of like I he's just gonna leave the toothpaste in the sink or can we have a conversation about how it actually impacts me because maybe it reminds me of

35:47.864 --> 35:55.975
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, something else or maybe it impacts me that I feel so disrespected, it's in my sink and the toothpaste is there and it just feels like just gross and whatever.

35:56.015 --> 36:02.123
[SPEAKER_03]: And then being able to work it through together, where you find some common ground coming through the conversation.

36:02.163 --> 36:06.148
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we talk about repair, that is the goal in my opinion.

36:06.248 --> 36:09.653
[SPEAKER_03]: The goal is to come out of the conversation feeling

36:09.633 --> 36:37.513
[SPEAKER_03]: you understood your partner more and you understood yourself more and going forward it's not just going to be a repeat of this negative cycle of oh my god he left a toothpaste in the sink again which builds more resentment and frustration yeah which there's a characteristic of the four apocalypse horsemen relationships right yeah skill got me yes yeah no i love i mean i'm obsessed with those guys i have been for years because i love anything research back proof i'm i'm

36:37.493 --> 36:42.541
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I love data, which kind of brings me into this question.

36:42.641 --> 36:54.821
[SPEAKER_02]: So I see a lot of people end up in this place of resentment because it's such a personal jab to them that how dare you do this thing.

36:55.021 --> 36:57.325
[SPEAKER_02]: Now sometimes sure it's reasonable.

36:57.305 --> 37:09.481
[SPEAKER_02]: However, and again, this is from the coaching perspective, and somehow in 10 years and 3,000 clients, it always some point relationships come into play, intimate relationships, et cetera.

37:10.022 --> 37:14.728
[SPEAKER_02]: And at some point, we always have a conversation about why would they keep doing this to me.

37:15.068 --> 37:16.190
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love your point just now.

37:16.690 --> 37:18.052
[SPEAKER_02]: It may not be intentional.

37:18.373 --> 37:20.175
[SPEAKER_02]: You may need some give and take.

37:20.716 --> 37:22.838
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do you repair resentment?

37:23.259 --> 37:26.383
[SPEAKER_02]: That one feels like the hardest of all of that.

37:26.363 --> 37:36.135
[SPEAKER_03]: Resemmon, I find to be very difficult as a couple of therapists, especially when people have lived and marinated in that for a very long time.

37:36.175 --> 37:39.700
[SPEAKER_03]: And I often tell couples, you know, rather come in too early.

37:39.720 --> 37:42.383
[SPEAKER_03]: For couples therapists, a couple therapy, then too late.

37:42.403 --> 37:49.352
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people come in too late thinking, oh, we must be on the brink of divorce or ending in order to have couples therapy.

37:49.412 --> 37:49.772
[SPEAKER_03]: No.

37:49.752 --> 37:59.468
[SPEAKER_03]: That, I just want to normalize that that a lot of people do come in, hopefully before that because then we don't have so much resentment or things to kind of unpack and heal from the past.

38:00.149 --> 38:12.148
[SPEAKER_03]: Resetment is very difficult because resentment to me is a signal that that person has not felt heard understood or seen potentially.

38:12.668 --> 38:20.803
[SPEAKER_03]: and whether they have communicated that with their partner, whether they have brought it up multiple times, whether they've been dismissed, whether it's repeating behavior.

38:20.903 --> 38:22.827
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm usually when there's resemblance.

38:22.947 --> 38:26.594
[SPEAKER_03]: It's usually on both sides because we're human and we're in, you know, with human.

38:27.155 --> 38:28.618
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's usually on both sides.

38:28.658 --> 38:32.044
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is one of the hardest things to sift through.

38:32.024 --> 38:46.998
[SPEAKER_03]: And what I hear a lot also is, you know, we talk about it and they talk a good game or they talk about changing this or that, but then the actions really don't follow it up or they go back to what they were doing before, which really does bump up the resentment.

38:47.078 --> 38:53.164
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, the resentment is a tough one and it's not impossible to come back from certainly not.

38:53.764 --> 38:59.770
[SPEAKER_03]: It just takes work and commitment and because when you're resentful, think about it,

39:00.155 --> 39:02.702
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I sort of feel like, well, why should I do that for you?

39:02.822 --> 39:04.146
[SPEAKER_03]: Why should I have this conversation?

39:04.166 --> 39:05.329
[SPEAKER_03]: You haven't shown me anything.

39:05.890 --> 39:06.492
[SPEAKER_03]: You've hurt me.

39:06.532 --> 39:07.675
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to do this.

39:07.695 --> 39:09.861
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a difficult one.

39:10.297 --> 39:19.170
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's one that I wish that I would have been able to understand much, much, much sooner, because it really is, it's almost impossible to get back from it.

39:19.291 --> 39:19.571
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

39:19.932 --> 39:25.881
[SPEAKER_02]: Talk about a heart closing down and you just go, wow, and that's both side, I felt it on both sides.

39:26.301 --> 39:34.093
[SPEAKER_02]: And as you were talking, it made me think of that film, marriage story, right, which if you haven't seen it, it's absolutely brutal.

39:34.073 --> 40:03.760
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's also such an important film when you talk about relationships because there's that part where I think it's Adam Driver's characters Charlie and he's like screaming, I was on the cover of New York Magazine and I was a director and I could have been great, but I fell in love with you and it's like, you know, if they would have just if they would have just talked about each other's goals and created boundaries and had a conversation about expectations that movie doesn't exist.

40:03.740 --> 40:04.361
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

40:04.961 --> 40:06.543
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, there was no coming back for them.

40:06.624 --> 40:09.046
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, if you've seen the film, it does not end well.

40:09.347 --> 40:11.029
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, whatever it doesn't matter.

40:11.489 --> 40:17.737
[SPEAKER_02]: My point is, when I see things like that, I'm like, how do you, how do you turn the car before it hits the wall?

40:18.378 --> 40:24.946
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and when you first get into a relationship, what, because you see this every single day, right?

40:24.966 --> 40:30.793
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the commonalities of the conversations that people wish they would have had?

40:30.773 --> 40:34.739
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of it, first of all, is relationship maintenance.

40:34.879 --> 40:47.678
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people aren't aware that in order to be in a healthy relationship, it really takes work and effort, knowing that you're going to argue as we've spoken before, knowing that repair is super important.

40:47.879 --> 40:51.364
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of these conversations that haven't been repaired or worked through,

40:51.344 --> 41:04.759
[SPEAKER_03]: Kind of stack might my therapist in the back in the day you say it's like hiding things underneath the carpet and then the next fight Would come and you trip over that plus all the other stuff that you've kind of brushed under the rug and so to me That's where the resentment builds.

41:04.839 --> 41:15.411
[SPEAKER_03]: So maintenance is a big one being able to keep the positivity of the relationship going simple things like Kiss hello and goodbye acknowledging each other

41:15.391 --> 41:24.364
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, saying what you're going to do, doing what you say you're going to do as certain other things that we can get into later of terms of just what makes a good healthy relationship.

41:24.945 --> 41:26.367
[SPEAKER_03]: And keeping those things going.

41:26.908 --> 41:32.216
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the other piece is both people noticing when they are heading towards the wall.

41:32.697 --> 41:37.924
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I see, I see quite often where one person is like alert, alert, alert, problem here.

41:37.964 --> 41:39.947
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other person is like, no, we're fine.

41:39.987 --> 41:40.348
[SPEAKER_03]: We're good.

41:40.368 --> 41:41.009
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's not look.

41:41.049 --> 41:42.291
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't look too close.

41:42.331 --> 41:43.472
[SPEAKER_03]: Like shove it onto the rug.

41:43.913 --> 41:45.195
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.

41:45.766 --> 41:48.722
[SPEAKER_02]: How much of a role is social media playing in all this right now?

41:48.972 --> 41:52.477
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a lot of comparison out there.

41:52.497 --> 42:06.918
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a lot of what's displayed in social media and what's displayed in movies in TV are not the real nitty-gritty of how complicated, complex, deep, vulnerable, raw, difficult.

42:08.961 --> 42:11.585
[SPEAKER_03]: Being in my relationship is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.

42:11.645 --> 42:13.408
[SPEAKER_03]: Do I broadcast that on social media?

42:13.488 --> 42:14.149
[SPEAKER_03]: Not necessarily.

42:14.189 --> 42:15.390
[SPEAKER_03]: I talk about it through my work.

42:15.430 --> 42:17.173
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm very open about that.

42:17.153 --> 42:22.378
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's one that I have a very good marriage with my husband, and we put a lot of work and effort into it.

42:22.878 --> 42:32.127
[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a lot of media storylines where couples get together, and you don't really know what happens, but then they've broken up.

42:32.147 --> 42:40.394
[SPEAKER_03]: They're no tools sort of given or things that are sort of practical that should be common knowledge of how to keep a relationship on track and healthy.

42:40.414 --> 42:45.979
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of people aren't let into the nuances of what happens.

42:45.959 --> 42:47.281
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it swings both ways.

42:47.301 --> 42:50.185
[SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of sensationalized and also shown as perfect.

42:50.365 --> 42:52.688
[SPEAKER_03]: And no work here needed were so great.

42:53.589 --> 42:54.030
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

42:54.050 --> 42:57.895
[SPEAKER_02]: And then like, by the way, we just wanted to let all our followers know we're divorced.

42:57.915 --> 42:58.476
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

42:58.496 --> 42:59.477
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a sad piece.

42:59.637 --> 43:00.378
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a sad piece.

43:00.638 --> 43:01.940
[SPEAKER_02]: I see this all the time.

43:02.040 --> 43:04.263
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially in this industry, you see it all the time.

43:04.684 --> 43:06.546
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just like, you guys are fucking liars.

43:06.927 --> 43:07.267
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

43:07.307 --> 43:08.028
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

43:08.669 --> 43:09.130
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

43:09.791 --> 43:13.215
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm curious, then, because you set a statement.

43:13.448 --> 43:22.726
[SPEAKER_02]: that I want to like unpack a little bit because I think there's practicality in it and I think that's always the thing missing from conversations around relationships.

43:23.507 --> 43:25.731
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you define work and effort?

43:26.112 --> 43:28.857
[SPEAKER_02]: You said, I didn't know how much of work and effort is going to take.

43:29.058 --> 43:29.979
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that held?

43:30.040 --> 43:31.322
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that actually mean?

43:32.129 --> 43:41.098
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think it's something that, first of all, you go back to your original question that you asked of like, does it take both people wanting to do this?

43:41.878 --> 43:46.703
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, maybe one person is more into it than another person.

43:46.823 --> 43:55.131
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think this relationship maintenance is a big one that can prevent kind of emotional build up that car kind of crueening to the wall.

43:55.791 --> 43:58.474
[SPEAKER_03]: I think check-ins about your relationship.

43:58.454 --> 43:59.256
[SPEAKER_03]: are a huge one.

43:59.276 --> 44:00.801
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you ever say in your relationship?

44:00.861 --> 44:01.944
[SPEAKER_03]: I say this in my husband all the time.

44:02.024 --> 44:02.927
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a couple therapists.

44:02.947 --> 44:06.777
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been in therapy for years myself and sometimes he's like, oh my goodness.

44:07.098 --> 44:07.600
[SPEAKER_03]: We're good.

44:07.700 --> 44:09.124
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, but are we really?

44:09.164 --> 44:10.046
[SPEAKER_03]: Are you sure?

44:10.087 --> 44:12.914
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm that guy.

44:12.935 --> 44:13.476
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I have

44:13.456 --> 44:14.538
[SPEAKER_03]: that in the back of my mind.

44:14.619 --> 44:16.162
[SPEAKER_03]: I know how important this is.

44:16.483 --> 44:18.747
[SPEAKER_03]: I've seen thousands of people in relationships.

44:18.828 --> 44:24.059
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think being able to say like, and I say to my couples, what's the temperature of your relationship?

44:24.500 --> 44:30.132
[SPEAKER_03]: And what I appreciate about couples therapy, it actually gives them a moment in time, whether it's every week or every other week.

44:30.112 --> 44:33.298
[SPEAKER_03]: To come in and say, yeah, actually, how are we doing?

44:33.618 --> 44:36.503
[SPEAKER_03]: How are you feeling about me and how am I feeling about you?

44:36.543 --> 44:38.968
[SPEAKER_03]: So many people don't do that.

44:39.108 --> 44:40.771
[SPEAKER_03]: And there are lots of reasons for that.

44:40.871 --> 44:45.319
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they're traveling all the time or work or kids or chaos or sickness or...

44:45.299 --> 44:46.581
[SPEAKER_03]: life gets in the way.

44:46.701 --> 44:51.627
[SPEAKER_03]: So that would be the first thing I would say is can you keep that check in with each other?

44:51.707 --> 45:00.818
[SPEAKER_03]: And it doesn't have to be, I think a lot of people also have this notion that it has to be this big grand gesture of let's travel on vacation together and go to these big things.

45:00.918 --> 45:13.433
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really about the day-to-day week-to-week kind of boring things of checking in with each other and having those conversations on how we're doing that that can mean so much and can prevent that emotional build-up later on.

45:13.700 --> 45:16.645
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and things like don't watch the show without her.

45:17.146 --> 45:19.370
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that is, you know what I mean?

45:19.390 --> 45:20.733
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's crazy.

45:20.753 --> 45:22.295
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like the wireless stuff.

45:22.436 --> 45:22.876
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

45:22.897 --> 45:29.869
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and it's like, hey, maybe remember her favorite food and maybe you need to remember the reason why

45:29.849 --> 45:34.716
[SPEAKER_02]: he makes you feel safe and comforted and remember like the money doesn't matter right?

45:34.776 --> 45:38.462
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure like a huge part of the conversations you have is around money.

45:38.482 --> 45:39.283
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

45:39.504 --> 45:47.115
[SPEAKER_02]: I think people just position themselves to want to live this glamorous lifestyle and not understand like there's a toll you have to be.

45:47.095 --> 45:51.520
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, societally, you see these people, and again, this is my Nord.

45:51.540 --> 46:04.814
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think this is women as a whole, but you see these women on Salsher, like, I want data guy who's not six four makes $100,000 a year jacked, you know, and I'm like, he probably doesn't what you, you know what I mean?

46:05.475 --> 46:15.145
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's a huge, I saw this stat the other day, that by 2030, 50% of people are going to be single.

46:15.243 --> 46:16.024
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

46:16.544 --> 46:16.784
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

46:16.804 --> 46:17.465
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.

46:17.865 --> 46:19.647
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the path that we're on.

46:19.687 --> 46:21.949
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's only going to get worse, right?

46:21.989 --> 46:35.321
[SPEAKER_02]: Because now if you look at what just dropped at CES this year, I mean, you basically have removed and made intimacy redundant for both men and women in from sexual capacity, not maybe from an emotional capacity.

46:35.781 --> 46:39.905
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's like some of the technology that just came out, you're like, it wants a belt to come out.

46:42.167 --> 46:42.407
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

46:43.428 --> 46:44.389
[SPEAKER_02]: No.

46:44.369 --> 46:49.074
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of people are about to be very, very, very lonely.

46:49.474 --> 47:05.150
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I think the other piece I was thinking of as you were talking and you mentioned something about being curious in the beginning of this and asking questions and my husband has a way of wanting to fix when we first got together, wanting to fix all my challenges issues whenever I talk.

47:05.170 --> 47:09.094
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, this is what you need to do and this is how you solve problems because that's what he does at work all day.

47:09.074 --> 47:16.312
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's another thing that I often teach couples is can you just ask a simple question, do you need me to fix this or do you just want me to listen?

47:16.332 --> 47:20.181
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that can prevent a lot of missteps as well.

47:20.482 --> 47:21.083
[SPEAKER_02]: totally.

47:21.724 --> 47:26.651
[SPEAKER_02]: That one question is literally changed the way that I interact with most people, right?

47:26.671 --> 47:29.856
[SPEAKER_02]: Because people are paying me a lot of money to fix their problem.

47:30.097 --> 47:31.459
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how this works.

47:31.479 --> 47:38.309
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in my real life, I've had to be like, you I've told people, you have to tell me if I'm in coach mode.

47:38.369 --> 47:40.052
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's just it's so natural now.

47:40.252 --> 47:41.474
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes I don't catch it.

47:41.795 --> 47:43.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And but that's such a great question.

47:43.938 --> 47:46.182
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's say somebody's working with you.

47:46.202 --> 47:47.524
[SPEAKER_02]: You got couples working with you.

47:47.544 --> 47:48.766
[SPEAKER_02]: They're deep in the work.

47:48.786 --> 47:50.048
[SPEAKER_02]: One of them's got ADHD.

47:50.068 --> 47:51.871
[SPEAKER_02]: The other one's like under press and medication.

47:51.891 --> 47:53.113
[SPEAKER_02]: The other maybe we'll couple.

47:53.173 --> 47:55.136
[SPEAKER_02]: There are everything's normal, but they don't fight.

47:55.257 --> 47:56.739
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's a huge problem.

47:57.040 --> 48:01.767
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, people are always coming to you because they're looking for getting reconnected.

48:02.308 --> 48:05.794
[SPEAKER_02]: What are the telltale signs that somebody's going to make it?

48:05.977 --> 48:06.598
[SPEAKER_03]: a couple things.

48:06.899 --> 48:13.191
[SPEAKER_03]: I always go back to, when they come into my office, when couples come into my office, it's usually a signal of they haven't given up.

48:13.211 --> 48:14.233
[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, that's helpful.

48:14.774 --> 48:16.057
[SPEAKER_03]: To me, there's still work to be done.

48:16.518 --> 48:17.961
[SPEAKER_03]: Therapy cannot be cheap.

48:17.981 --> 48:24.233
[SPEAKER_03]: Therapy can feel chain full or stigmatizing or whatever you have around the thought of therapy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So to actually arrive in the door and sit in the chair.

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[SPEAKER_03]: is something, right?

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[SPEAKER_03]: That's information.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So here they are.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So we haven't given up yet, and I go, yes, okay, good.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Great.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And then when you dive into the work, are both people willing to be here, wanting to be here, what's getting in the way?

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[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times, couples come in and we talk a lot about Sue Johnson.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you've heard of emotionally focused therapy.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Sue Johnson,

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[SPEAKER_03]: She talks a lot, she recently passed, but her book Hold Me Tite is phenomenal.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And she talks about a very common cycle that couples get into when challenge hits a relationship, and one person is the pursuer, and wants to talk about things, and wants to work through things, and wants to have the conversation like right now, or before we go to bed, but like right now.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And the other person, when challenge hits the relationship, feels maybe flooded in their nervous system, feels like, oh, I need to give space, I need to move away, I need to, you know, regulate myself, and maybe this will just go away on its own, they are more like the withdrawal.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So,

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[SPEAKER_03]: As a couple's therapist, we're sort of assessing, this is sort of the way I've been trained in the way that I work and the lens that I have through St. Johnson's work is sort of assessing for are they more a pursuer type or they more that withdraw type and realizing that they're getting stuck in what is usually a negative cycle.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and so it could be insert any topic, different day, different time, but here we are again.

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[SPEAKER_03]: You feel like, you want to talk about it, you feel like, oh my gosh, get me away from this conversation and you both are hurt.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So we're assessing as a couple therapists, depending on how you work for a lot of those things, but I think the hope of you're here.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Do you both want to be here and then really assessing for what are you both willing to hear and be vulnerable with and to actually change within yourself to make this work?

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[SPEAKER_03]: And some couples may come to a place where, you know, I always say my role as a couple therapists is not to keep you together.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes couples therapy is something that gets you more clarity to say, you know, what?

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[SPEAKER_03]: This actually isn't working and I need to walk away.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's that's a hard reality, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that I've

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[SPEAKER_02]: He's a polarizing figure, Jordan Peterson.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But one of the things that he has said that I think about a lot is that you want to choose a person who you're willing to have a thousand fights with because at the end of the day that's just the reality.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And on the back side of hearing, I must have heard him say that 10 years ago.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a long time.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And on the back side of that, that was one of the drivers where I was like, I'm gonna grind the gears till there's no gears left.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna do whatever is necessary to try to make this work.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I've never been married, but I would like to, because I think that it's a part of the natural evolution of our species and the time and age we live in.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's cool that you have your person.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I made this declaration myself.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I'm never getting divorced.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like I am not like this is like, I don't care how bad it is.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not signing papers.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm fucking 40 years old.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm in it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Is there a path.

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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a high level question that I'm asking a very simplified answer to is there a path to never getting divorced.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, oh, it's such a hard question, because I think it also depends, um, I saw a lot of my friends in college get together very young and, um, a few of them landed in divorce later on because I think we do change and develop and grow and I think what we're our priorities once maybe in our early 20s are not our priorities now so.

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[SPEAKER_03]: There's so many factors that go into this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think it comes back to choosing somebody who is not just you're attracted to and there's a spark and it's fun and all of this.

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[SPEAKER_03]: That really meets you on some of those deeper levels that are important to you.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, this is about what's important for you.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody's a little bit different in that department.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So knowing, you know, for me, I wanted somebody that was faithful.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted somebody that I knew could do the hard work with me.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I wanted somebody that wouldn't give up and would keep trying.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And so when we think about, you know, is there anything you can do to step in the way of divorce?

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[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it happens and that's okay because one of you has maybe grown or shifted or changed.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I think it's just so personal to each couple, um, so I don't know if there's like a one-stop shop.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's certain things that you can do, like the repair conversation, like making your relationship a priority, like doing these maintenance things.

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[SPEAKER_03]: And if that is all done and you still decide that you don't want to be together, okay?

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[SPEAKER_02]: get it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I hear so much in this is like, it is work.

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think that everything is there's there's nothing worth having that's ever been easy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that one of the things that that I've had to learn just personally over the years is to let go the assumption that you're not going to have to work your face off for stuff.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Especially relationships, especially dating.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's a year later I went on like 60 dates in one year because I was like, I heard I heard this one ago, if I had to go in 400 dates in one year to find my person, I'll do it.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, so then I end up in a relationship for a couple of years.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That was great.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But my point is, it's like the the work has to be there and like how bad do you want it?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Correct.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We get so comfortable and so complacent with each other.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And we forget the reason why we like them to begin with.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Agreed.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and maybe it's not just the great sex or their looks because those things will fade your hips gonna break and you're gonna be old and ugly and so yeah that is just the nature of the world but can you be friends and that's that's the thing that I keep leaning into I'm like I just want a friendship yeah my person and me to like each other

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes.

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[SPEAKER_03]: I remember when I met my husband, it felt the feeling that I had that, you know, resonated with me was I feel like I've got someone who has my back.

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[SPEAKER_03]: No matter what, somebody in my corner, somebody cheering me on, is he perfect, no, and my perfect, absolutely not.

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[SPEAKER_03]: But somebody that I know come thicker than come high waters, low waters, life, death, chaos, children, ADHD, diversity, all these things, right?

54:44.986 --> 54:50.187
[SPEAKER_03]: that they're in my corner and that they're hunkering down with me to do the work.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Super powerful.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That's where I'm at.

54:53.311 --> 54:56.276
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the whole notion in the way that I see the world these days.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It used to be sex, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Just full on.

54:59.080 --> 55:02.565
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, I mean, I just only want to have sex with the hottest women possible.

55:02.625 --> 55:04.107
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care about anything else.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, oh, well, this feels super empty.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then I had to go do deep deep deep deep deep work that we talked about in this podcast many times.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

55:12.420 --> 55:15.284
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I landed on the other side of the pendulum one of the greatest seconds.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually about being humanly connected to another person.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, this has been such a fun, great conversation before ask you the last question, where can people connect with you, where can they learn more if they're struggling in their relationships and they're like, man, my husband slash wife, we need to do this work, where they, where can they come and learn from you?

55:36.522 --> 55:36.942
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So we are, um, I have a wonderful small team of therapists that are in, um, and able to practice in New York City, New Jersey and Connecticut because we're licensed.

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[SPEAKER_03]: We can't see people elsewhere, unfortunately.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and then you can find me on social media.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm on TikTok embracing joy and YC and then on Instagram embracing joy, psychotherapy, and then our websites embracing joy.com.

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[SPEAKER_02]: amazing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And guys, if you've got to think on broken podcast.com, we'll put that information and more in the show notes for Melissa's episode.

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[SPEAKER_02]: My last question for you, my friend.

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[SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean to you to be on broken?

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[SPEAKER_03]: For me it means resilience.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Even when you're knocked down, even when you feel afraid, even when you feel hopeless, that you don't give up and you keep trying whatever that means for you, whether it's getting more clear, doing more inner work, leaning in, it's about resilience for me.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Brilliantly said.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being here.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Unbroken nation my friends.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you guys for listening.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If you got value out of today's episode, you may want to listen to it with your partner again.

56:48.317 --> 56:50.761
[SPEAKER_02]: You may want to share it with that cute person that you're dating.

56:51.081 --> 56:56.950
[SPEAKER_02]: You may even want to call Melissa and get scheduled if you live in any of the places she just mentioned.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And until then, my friends, be unbroken.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for listening to Think Unbroken.

57:04.941 --> 57:12.368
[SPEAKER_02]: Please share this episode with someone who could use it and help us move forward in our mission of ending generational trauma in our lifetime.

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[SPEAKER_02]: If you would, please take five seconds to pop on iTunes or Spotify, hit that five star leave a review and you can also reach out to us on social, at Michael Unbroken or at Think Unbroken and of course you can check out our YouTube channel at Think Unbroken.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being a part of Unbroken Nation, my friends, and until next time, be Unbroken.